12:56:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:56:50 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/09/23-matf-irc
12:56:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:56:51 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:56:52 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 23 September 2026
12:56:52 <Zakim> to set the meeting title please use "meeting: MATF 23 September 2026", JJ
12:57:00 <JJ> meeting: MATF 23 September 2026
12:57:10 <JJ> chair+
12:57:19 <JJ> agenda+ WCAG2Mobile / AG WG update
12:57:24 <JJ> agenda+ Start of Milestone 3
12:57:31 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks
12:57:38 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.5 Multiple Ways
12:57:48 <JJ> agenda+ 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation
12:57:56 <JJ> agenda+ 3.2.4 Consistent Identification
13:01:32 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
13:01:44 <RobW> RobW has joined #matf
13:02:58 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
13:03:03 <Tanya> present+
13:04:54 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
13:05:00 <sam-estoesta> sam-estoesta has joined #matf
13:05:00 <pauljadam> present+
13:05:06 <quintinb> present+
13:05:08 <quintinb> scribe: quintinb
13:05:14 <sam-estoesta> present+
13:05:51 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:05:51 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- WCAG2Mobile / AG WG update -- taken up [from JJ]
13:06:37 <JamesH> JamesH has joined #matf
13:06:39 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #matf
13:06:43 <JamesH> present+
13:06:49 <Detlev> present+
13:07:29 <Tanya> https://www.w3.org/wbs/35422/scope_exercise/results/
13:07:58 <RobW> present+
13:07:59 <JJ> Presentation yesterday at AG WG: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/16JME9YIgKR9ErMC0xFvKveftLKCGYdWkylyjLtrNJnE/edit?slide=id.p#slide=id.p
13:08:04 <Tanya> https://www.w3.org/2026/04/28-ag-minutes.html#b1c2
13:11:02 <Detlev> why is that surprising?
13:11:03 <JJ> ^ 28 April 2026 with AG WG survey
13:11:05 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/2026/09/22-ag-minutes.html#4d55
13:11:18 <JJ> ^ 22 September 2026 about 'mobile' term
13:12:46 <quintinb> Yeah I don't like "Native and touch" for many, many reasons
13:13:16 <JamesH> +1 to quintinb
13:13:26 <sam-estoesta> 1+ to quintinb, Tanya
13:15:03 <Tanya> q+
13:15:45 <quintinb> Detlev Tanya just said that some people just refer to the EN for things not in WCAG. I understand WCAG is applied to mobile, but in Holland we apply other things - certainly if you have hardware aspects and see that as a system then you need other things. But many things like 11.5.2 thewre's a whole set of things like moving focus etc with a screen
13:15:46 <quintinb> reader that can be covered. Some things are redundant but other things aren't. There are some things that can't be covered like execution of available actions not covered, but it's well covered there. Why is that surprising - because people  dealing with mobile apps sometimes do need to go beyond wcag. It seems a good way to compliment things
13:15:46 <quintinb> missing in wag
13:15:47 <JJ> ack Tanya
13:17:02 <quintinb> Tanya too bad I couldn't join your session because I was assigned to another group. But the EN standard is refereing to WCAG2ICT which references WCAG (note: it's hard to scribe this)
13:17:30 <JJ> Thanks quintinb - many abbreviations
13:17:43 <quintinb> The references are hard for me folks
13:18:05 <sam-estoesta> q+
13:18:06 <quintinb> but add relationships...
13:18:53 <quintinb> @Detlev we'd delay WCAG3 if we don't focus on web
13:19:41 <quintinb> Detlev you could write WCAG so that it is applicable to mobile.
13:20:52 <JJ> ack sam-estoesta
13:21:49 <quintinb> sam-estoesta Apologies for not making yesterday. Was there anything spoken about the reputation risk regarding the push back? There's been so much work already done
13:23:36 <JJ> Quoting alastairc:
13:23:38 <JJ> alastairc: I can help out with scoping. something we looked at and agreed a while ago. Chair hat on. It can be a struggle when this group is doing things like rechartering.
13:23:38 <JJ> … there are W3 members who want to make sure we don't stray out of our web content box.
13:23:38 <JJ> <alastairc> "WCAG 3.0 focuses on provisions for web content. The provisions can also be applied to software and documents but are not considered complete for those platforms in 3.0. Future versions may provide additional guidance specific to other types of digital content."
13:24:05 <quintinb> Detlev there is an existing problem with workload and requirements definition - lots of work over every sentence. It won't be that different from old WCAG. If there was some solidity in the requirements then our group could use it as a structure, everyone would be delighted
13:25:13 <pauljadam> mobile is the web
13:26:52 <JJ> +1
13:28:15 <quintinb> Detlev one should note that the normative should be tech neutral and if we went tech specific then those notes would be non-normative. No one would object to that but it's always a matter of who is talking the most and if there are several people making strong points it's a way to sway everyone.
13:28:38 <pauljadam> Apple probably does not want rules applied to them saying their apps are not accessible 🙄
13:29:00 <pauljadam> Or Apple wants to make their own rules
13:29:22 <quintinb> JamesH intro
13:30:18 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:30:18 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Start of Milestone 3 -- taken up [from JJ]
13:30:30 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20milestone%3A%22Third%20Draft%22
13:31:39 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:31:39 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks -- taken up [from JJ]
13:31:48 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/8
13:33:58 <pauljadam> https://github.com/cvs-health/ios-swiftui-accessibility-techniques/blob/main/iOSswiftUIa11yTechniques/Documentation/Containers.md
13:33:58 <pauljadam> Containers can group sections of a page with meaningful accessible names. VoiceOver users can jump between each container using the Rotor. Containers can group related controls like radio buttons or mimic the behavior of ARIA Landmarks. The container name is spoken to VoiceOver when focus is first placed on an element inside the group.
13:34:26 <pauljadam> Headings are also a method to bypass blocks
13:35:05 <pauljadam> Set of Pages is good :)
13:37:18 <pauljadam> web is mobile
13:37:38 <pauljadam> we write techniques for how to do it :)
13:37:40 <RobW> q+
13:38:24 <pauljadam> you probably wont have a skip link on a native app but it's not impossible and a web app could have it
13:38:53 <pauljadam> hamburger menu is also a method to bypass the navigation block when it's collapsed
13:39:02 <JJ> ack RobW
13:39:34 <JamesH> +1 pauljadam
13:39:58 <pauljadam> agree I don't think skip link is required for native app
13:40:19 <quintinb> RobW I mostly agree with what Paul is putting in the chat. Paul's point on skip links - sometimes web folks insist on skip links in mobile which is odd. I think we should keep this, but with what Paul is suggesting, but make sure we make a note on skip links not being recommended
13:40:29 <pauljadam> just like 3 skip links is not really required or visually hidden headings
13:40:50 <quintinb> I would love if screen readers had a rotor option for errors
13:42:10 <JJ> Poll: do you agree with adding a note about best practices to skip content in mobile apps?
13:42:22 <pauljadam> +1
13:42:24 <JamesH> +1
13:42:26 <Tanya> +1
13:42:26 <quintinb> +1
13:42:29 <sam-estoesta> +1
13:42:30 <RobW> +1
13:42:47 <pauljadam> it's definitely a confusion point when trying to apply web a11y to native a11y
13:42:51 <Detlev> +1 sections navigation indeed much better than skip links!
13:43:29 <JJ> ACTION: 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks - Add note about best practices to skip content in mobile apps
13:43:59 <JJ> Poll: do you agree with adding a note about recommending developers to NOT add a skiplink as this is not a best practice in mobile apps but a web technique
13:44:15 <pauljadam> q+
13:44:34 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:45:19 <RobW> +1 to 'not required'
13:45:33 <JJ> +1 to 'not required'
13:45:34 <quintinb> pauljadam I think it's sort of a usability question. There are web apps, web pages that may have a skip link because it was already there. I agree it is weird, but maybe say it's not required rather than "bad" - wcag just says "methods of bypassing blocks"
13:45:51 <quintinb> Yeah but auditors already fail on auto-focusing errors which is not even in wcag
13:46:22 <pauljadam> +1 to not required
13:46:28 <Tanya> +1 to not required
13:46:37 <JamesH> 0
13:46:40 <quintinb> +1 to not required
13:47:08 <quintinb> Detlev what does "+1 to not required" mean?
13:47:19 <pauljadam> Because you can use headings and containers
13:47:21 <pauljadam> basically
13:47:31 <Detlev> +1 to skip link not required
13:47:56 <quintinb> RobW I think we should have something softer to suggest it's not the best way
13:47:56 <pauljadam> something like skip links are generally meant for desktop screen reader users ?
13:48:08 <JJ> ACTION: 2.4.1 Bypass blocks - Add note about skiplinks, noting that they are not required in mobile apps (if other techniques are used)
13:48:25 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:48:25 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 2.4.5 Multiple Ways -- taken up [from JJ]
13:48:35 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/13
13:49:54 <pauljadam> native apps need a search still
13:50:03 <pauljadam> search and navigation
13:50:13 <quintinb> agre
13:50:16 <quintinb> *agree
13:50:29 <pauljadam> an index page is basically a site map
13:51:12 <pauljadam> they can put a site map in a native app but it's not typical, like a skip link is mostly for web sites
13:51:53 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-processes
13:52:33 <pauljadam> like if you have a step by step onboarding screen the navigation and search does not have to show a link to get to the middle step or the last step
13:55:14 <pauljadam> most apps have a search and a navigation, boom they meet the SC :)
13:56:48 <pauljadam> it's required
13:57:07 <JJ> q?
13:57:16 <pauljadam> q+
13:57:19 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:58:19 <JJ> Candidate for sitemap note, deeplink note, search functionality recommendation
13:58:22 <quintinb> pauljadam I think it defiitely applies to mobile - have a hamburger menu and possibly a search. They could have a site map if they wanted - but it seems like a good usability improvement to have a search
13:59:00 <pauljadam> I think that's a good note because so many a11y folks may think a site map is required
13:59:18 <JamesH> +1
13:59:39 <quintinb> Sorry if I got wrong folks
14:00:24 <JJ> ACTION: Add note about sitemap and how it does apply to apps and whether it is required or not
14:00:44 <JJ> ACTION: Consider notes about deeplink and search functioanlity and other ways to reach in-app content
14:00:59 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:00:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tanya, pauljadam, quintinb, sam-estoesta, JamesH, Detlev, RobW
14:01:08 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/09/23-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:01:23 <JJ> regrets+ Joe_Humbert
14:01:26 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/09/23-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:02:18 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:02:18 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2026/09/23-matf-actions.rdf :
14:02:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks - Add note about best practices to skip content in mobile apps [1]
14:02:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/09/23-matf-irc#T13-43-29
14:02:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: 2.4.1 Bypass blocks - Add note about skiplinks, noting that they are not required in mobile apps (if other techniques are used) [2]
14:02:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/09/23-matf-irc#T13-48-08
14:02:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add note about sitemap and how it does apply to apps and whether it is required or not [3]
14:02:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/09/23-matf-irc#T14-00-24
14:02:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Consider notes about deeplink and search functioanlity and other ways to reach in-app content [4]
14:02:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/09/23-matf-irc#T14-00-44