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12:50:24 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:50:51 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2026-09-17: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Sep/0013.html
12:50:52 <ivan> Chair: wendy, susan
12:50:52 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:50:52 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Sep/0013.html
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12:59:35 <ivan> present+ dale, AvneeshSingh, sueneu, george, gautier, duga
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12:59:45 <Duga> present+
12:59:47 <sueneu> present+
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12:59:55 <AvneeshSingh> present+
13:00:02 <toshiakikoike> present+
13:00:17 <ivan> present+ laurent
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13:00:39 <wendyreid> present+
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13:00:56 <LaurentLM> present+
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13:01:02 <Duga> scribe+
13:02:03 <wendyreid> Topic: Restarting chartering
13:02:08 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/publ-maintenance-wg-charter/
13:02:31 <Duga> wendyreid: Announcement - at the end of this chartered I will be stepping down as chair
13:02:38 <GeorgeK> present+
13:02:45 <Duga> ... Do not fear! We have a replacement
13:03:00 <Duga> ... Duga will join as chair
13:03:23 <gautierchomel> present+
13:03:23 <ivan> q+
13:03:33 <Duga> ... sueneu and shiestyle will be continuing
13:03:37 <wendyreid> ack ivan
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13:04:08 <Duga> ivan: administrative - Duga has joined the chairs calls
13:04:08 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pmwg
13:04:10 <CharlesL1> present+
13:04:27 <Duga> ... and wendyreid will likely stay on for a bit
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13:04:29 <ivan> present+ Hadrien
13:04:41 <ivan> q+
13:04:49 <LaurentLM> q+
13:05:06 <Duga> wendyreid: We will be publish a start of the charter, please review it
13:05:14 <wendyreid> ack ivq
13:05:19 <Duga> ... will include next epub version, annotations, etc
13:05:33 <Duga> ivan: There is a link to a diff of this and the previous charter
13:05:44 <sueneu> s/ivq/ivan/
13:05:49 <Duga> ... the second section, Scope, will need discussion
13:05:52 <mgarrish> present+
13:06:06 <Duga> ... the big yellow blob there will need to be worked out in Dublin
13:06:34 <Duga> ... These are some things I thought of, plus some items from our previous recharter discussions
13:07:04 <Duga> ... The important point is that EPUB annotations will not make this cycle, it will be under the new charter
13:07:34 <Duga> ... I have made some entries about the ISO work. I made that a new section, the old charter talked about it in a vague way.
13:07:43 <Duga> ... it is better spelled out here
13:07:58 <Duga> ... after those sections it is mostly admin stuff
13:08:11 <Duga> ... 3.4 is the timeline, comments there are welcome
13:08:40 <Duga> ... Timelines are a rough indication, we rarely consider them after chartering them
13:09:25 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:09:29 <Duga> ... Before Dublin, in the liason section, I think there is a new multimedia TF in the CG, can I get contact info for that?
13:09:55 <CharlesL1> ack ivan
13:09:56 <Duga> LaurentLM: At TPAC it looks like the charter is at the end of the day, can it be moved up?
13:10:18 <Duga> ... I have a flight out on Tuesday afternoon, I would like to participate in the discussion
13:10:38 <Duga> wendyreid: The agenda is still fluid, we can make it work
13:11:01 <Dale> q+
13:11:09 <wendyreid> ack Dale
13:11:22 <Duga> Dale: I notice audiobooks is listed under our umbrella
13:11:34 <Duga> ... we never talk about them, is it because they are really stable
13:11:55 <Duga> wendyreid: We developed a spec, it is used, but not widely
13:12:05 <Duga> ... it is also very fluid
13:12:07 <Duga> q+
13:12:26 <Hadrien> q+
13:12:28 <Duga> ... we keep it there if people want to add a bug, etc
13:12:28 <wendyreid> ack Duga
13:12:40 <sueneu> scribe+
13:13:10 <sueneu> duga: Playbooks supported the audio format, and publishers said they wouldn't use it any more, but use the Kobo format
13:13:26 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:13:36 <sueneu> wendyreid: the formats are very close
13:13:47 <Duga> Hadrien: Audiobooks spec can succeed for 2 reasons
13:14:03 <Duga> ... there is interchange, and there is end user adoption
13:14:08 <Duga> ... spec has failed as both
13:14:22 <Duga> ... I have never seen it used as end user
13:14:45 <ivan> q+
13:15:06 <Duga> ... For interchange, not really used and lots of people are asking for different things
13:15:14 <Duga> ... and that can vary by country
13:15:27 <Duga> ... so the workflow is whatever they are being asked for
13:15:57 <Duga> ... I don't think there is much leverage for standardizing for interchange
13:16:25 <Duga> ... the problems aren't really technical, we would need something external (eg a trade org) to push the format
13:16:45 <Duga> ... Real change can't come from us, needs to come from one of those orgs
13:17:09 <Duga> ... For end user, it really isn't needed. DRM free is easy, and it doesn't help with DRM, so not really useful
13:17:58 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:18:20 <Duga> ivan: This came up because of the charter, and that doesn't need changing
13:18:41 <Duga> ... it doesn't need to be changed in the charter
13:19:16 <Duga> ... There is a mechanism to drop a spec (rescind?), but we are not discussing that. so the charter is fine
13:19:18 <wendyreid> Topic: Annotations issue #3009 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/3009
13:19:36 <Duga> wendyreid: This is about metadata in annotation sets
13:19:40 <ivan> s/rescind?/rescind/
13:20:19 <ivan> q+
13:20:21 <Duga> ... we discussed whether the metadata in the epub is good enough to include, but we ended up that it can be useful, eg for an end user to identify the book
13:20:23 <LaurentLM> q+
13:20:25 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:20:34 <Duga> ... so what metadata still needs discussion
13:21:15 <Duga> ivan: We should never look at these spec in isolation. It shouldn't be the job of the annotations spec to go into discussion of the metadata or the quality of it
13:21:33 <Duga> ... Whatever the package metadata quality is, it is what we have
13:22:00 <Duga> ... if there are problems with the metadata, we should discuss it as part of EPUB, not annotations
13:22:13 <GeorgeK> +1 to what Ivan said.
13:22:18 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:22:18 <Duga> ... We should preserve the package MD as is
13:22:48 <Duga> LaurentLM: I agree. I have a PR where I pulled dc:format. Since we only discuss epub it is meaningless
13:23:04 <ivan> q+
13:23:16 <Duga> ... In spec we say the metadata can help with matching, but it is very vague
13:23:46 <Duga> ... dc:publisher doesn't seem to be described in 3.4
13:23:55 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:23:57 <Duga> ... publisher is a creator in 3.4
13:24:41 <Duga> ivan: If it isn't in epub, we should remove it. And the text should say this is a copy of what is in the publication
13:24:44 <Hadrien> q+
13:25:03 <Duga> ... it isn't our job to make a better identifier, that should be addressed by epub 3.5
13:25:13 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:25:18 <Duga> LaurentLM: I made a mistake, dc:publisher is there
13:25:42 <Duga> Hadrien: I really think dc:identifier is not the average metadata
13:25:57 <Duga> ... it isn't our job to redefine it
13:25:59 <Duga> q+
13:26:09 <Duga> ... it is a trap
13:26:16 <wendyreid> ack Duga
13:26:50 <sueneu> duga: I agree I understand the desire to copy the md that is in the epub. But this dc identifier means nothing to the user
13:27:28 <sueneu> …they know about the author, title, publisher. Identifier is useless. It really is a different piece of information from all the other information
13:27:31 <ivan> q+
13:28:02 <sueneu> …if we include it, we should be clear not to show it to the user. And that is confusing
13:28:15 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:28:27 <Duga> ivan: I have no problem not to include it
13:28:32 <sueneu> …we should add a warning if we include dc:identifier that you shouldn't use it to identify books or show it to readers
13:29:01 <Duga> ... 2 questions - one question is what to copy here
13:29:18 <Duga> ... other question is should we re-open dc:identifier discussions in Dublin
13:30:26 <Duga> wendyreid: we did also discuss generator, we did have issues about PII
13:30:38 <GeorgeK> q+
13:30:41 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:30:45 <Duga> ... so we leaned against that - what about other parts?
13:31:30 <Duga> GeorgeK: Assuming the annotation set is kept after loosing the book, I would like to see us add whatever is needed for a proper citation
13:31:38 <Duga> ... and that solves the identification issue
13:31:54 <sueneu> q+
13:32:05 <Duga> wendyreid: The list in the About object has: identifier, format, publisher, and date
13:32:13 <Duga> ... what else do we need
13:32:16 <Duga> ... ?
13:32:43 <Duga> GeorgeK: I don't know if that is enough - date is one problem
13:32:54 <CharlesL1> q+
13:33:06 <Duga> ... Publisher maintain a list of what is needed
13:33:08 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:33:19 <Duga> sueneu: We decided to drop format
13:33:36 <ivan> q+
13:33:38 <Duga> ... Right?
13:33:55 <Duga> wendyreid: Does that matter?
13:34:07 <sueneu> q+
13:34:08 <Duga> GeorgeK: Yes, lots of accessibility things
13:34:10 <Hadrien> We don't put EPUB version in the media type
13:34:16 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL1
13:34:18 <sueneu> q-
13:34:21 <Duga> wendyreid: It's just a media type, no version
13:34:22 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:34:34 <Duga> CharlesL1: Don't we need page numbers?
13:34:38 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:34:46 <Duga> LaurentLM: Yes, but that is at annotation level, not set
13:35:01 <Duga> ivan: There are some formats that need eg city of publication
13:35:33 <Duga> ... I come back to the same problem, all we have at annotation creation time is what we have in epub
13:35:46 <Duga> q+
13:35:52 <wendyreid> q+
13:36:33 <Duga> ... the format is of the citation is not part of this interchange format
13:36:38 <wendyreid> ack Duga
13:37:15 <sueneu> duga: I agree with ivan, there is a question of citations, and that is not an issue for annotations
13:37:33 <sueneu> …perhaps we could add citations to the new charter, and then update the annotations
13:37:41 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:37:47 <CharlesL1> +1 to Duga
13:37:47 <sueneu> …but this shouldn't be part of the annotations discussion now
13:37:53 <GeorgeK> +1 to add what is needed for citations to the charter.
13:38:14 <Duga> wendyreid: Epook citations are different than regular
13:38:25 <sueneu> s/Epook/Ebook/
13:38:32 <Duga> ... for ebooks there needs to be a stable url or identifier
13:38:45 <Duga> ... It is often a link to a products page
13:38:57 <Hadrien> q+
13:39:01 <Duga> ... these are rarely part of the epub
13:39:08 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:39:33 <Duga> Hadrien: I understand the need, that said I don't think we should attempt it
13:39:46 <Duga> ... I don't think we can do it from the EPUB side
13:40:09 <Duga> ... this only works in a closed environement and getting metadata from elsewhere (eg ONIX)
13:40:20 <GeorgeK> q+
13:40:26 <Duga> ... In that case the RS may have all the data it needs
13:40:35 <Duga> ... the other use case is a silod file
13:41:31 <Duga> ... If you are an open RS the only thing you can do is grab the data you can find, and let the user fix it
13:41:39 <LaurentLM> q?
13:41:40 <Duga> ... I don't think we can do better than that
13:41:47 <LaurentLM> q+
13:42:01 <Duga> q+
13:42:17 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:42:23 <Duga> ... From a reading app perspective, those are our options
13:42:33 <Duga> GeorgeK: in higher ed, I get this request all the time
13:42:54 <ivan> q+
13:42:58 <Duga> ... Students start with the epub, and then get stuck trying to make the citation
13:43:20 <Duga> ... we have to address it
13:43:24 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:44:22 <Duga> LaurentLM: There is another use case, where there can be a different app (eg Zotero) that can ingest the annotation set and create the citations
13:44:54 <Duga> ... today the metadata is poor
13:45:00 <Duga> ... but I have taken what we have
13:45:10 <wendyreid> ack Duga
13:45:37 <sueneu> duga: this is a specific bug in citations, and a separate topic from annotations
13:45:42 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:46:02 <Duga> ivan: I will add a line to the yellow blob about metadata for citations
13:46:25 <Duga> ... maybe we won't be able to do anything, but we can decide in Dublin
13:46:54 <Duga> ... we could add a line that says it is fine to add your own metadata
13:47:12 <Duga> LaurentLM: There is already a sentence about that
13:47:20 <Duga> ... which allows other vocabularies
13:47:43 <Duga> wendyreid: LaurentLM do you have enough info?
13:47:58 <Duga> LaurentLM: Yes, I will add this to the PR
13:48:13 <wendyreid> Topic: Annotations issue 3037 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/3037
13:48:46 <sueneu> duga: right now, the target of an annotation is any publication resource
13:49:17 <Hadrien> q+
13:49:18 <sueneu> …you could bookmark and image even if it is a spine item
13:49:50 <sueneu> …so I propose the target be only a spine item, and not any resource. You could reference a file that the user never even sees
13:50:04 <sueneu> …CFI natively supports this
13:50:34 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:50:37 <sueneu> …LaurentM wrote some text about this, but we never have defined spine item, even though we use the term alot
13:50:51 <ivan> present+ mgarrish
13:50:56 <Duga> Hadrien: I agree, since eg images can be repeated
13:51:17 <sueneu> s/LaurentM/LaurentLM/
13:51:22 <Duga> ... Images can be referenced multiple times with different alt text, etc
13:51:39 <Duga> ... I would add a warning box for non-linear
13:51:54 <Duga> ... which seems to be an additional risk
13:51:59 <GeorgeK> q+
13:52:00 <wendyreid> q?
13:52:02 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:52:34 <sueneu> q+
13:52:39 <Duga> GeorgeK: We use non-linear for extended descriptions at the end of the book
13:52:52 <Hadrien> q+
13:52:55 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:52:58 <Duga> ... I imagine that someone might want to annotate the extended description
13:53:08 <Duga> sueneu: Footnotes are also often non linear
13:53:11 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:53:35 <Duga> Hadrien: Just to clarify, I don't say we should drop them, just that you are living dangerously when you use them
13:53:47 <Duga> q+
13:53:51 <wendyreid> ack Duga
13:54:26 <sueneu> duga: I see your point, it is risky, I don't know what the rs exporting the annotations can do about these risks
13:54:45 <Hadrien> q+
13:54:48 <sueneu> …what would Playbooks do, for instance? Warn the user?
13:55:04 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:55:37 <Duga> Hadrien: The risk may be around progression, so that can be incompatible
13:55:44 <ivan> q+
13:56:15 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:56:22 <Duga> ... it is additional risk, so things that make sense for linear may not make sense for non-linear. I think it is worth pointing out
13:56:38 <Duga> ivan: is it a problem with the annotation in general, or with specific selectors
13:56:52 <Duga> Hadrien: Neither, the core issue is how non-linear is handled
13:57:06 <GeorgeK> q+
13:57:07 <Duga> ... So the inconsistent implementation is the problem
13:57:14 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:57:19 <Duga> q+
13:57:43 <Duga> GeorgeK: In the case of extended desc, the original image is always referenced
13:58:05 <sueneu> q+
13:58:05 <wendyreid> ack Duga
13:58:07 <Duga> ... could we make that association? Or will we force people back to the image
13:58:41 <sueneu> duga: I don't think we're saying that you won't be able to annotate an extended description, but you'll have to be careful how it is exported
13:59:02 <sueneu> …I don't think we can require that you go back to the original image
13:59:27 <sueneu> …are we somewhat agreed that there will be some restriction to spine items, maybe just warning?
13:59:39 <ivan> q+
13:59:45 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:59:53 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:59:58 <sueneu> …we should define spine item in the spec, and then link to that in the annotation spec
14:00:05 <Duga> ivan: I think we can do it in 3.4
14:00:14 <Duga> ... it is not a fundamental change
14:00:49 <Duga> LaurentLM: Ok, I will just reference spine item and wait for the spec change
14:01:05 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:01:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/09/17-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
14:01:24 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:01:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items