14:29:32 RRSAgent has joined #ag 14:29:36 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/09/15-ag-irc 14:29:36 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:29:37 Meeting: AGWG Teleconference 14:29:41 zakim, start meeting 14:29:42 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:29:43 Meeting: AGWG Teleconference 14:29:57 chair: Adam 14:30:05 present: Adam 14:30:12 agenda+ Introductions 14:30:19 agenda+ Announcements 14:30:23 agenda+ New draft of WCAG2Mobile (https://w3c.github.io/matf/) 14:30:32 agenda+ Conformance Subgroup outbrief 14:30:36 agenda+ Subgroup breakouts, if time remains 14:30:46 regrets: Nicki Berry, Makoto Ueki, Martijn Houtepen 14:30:58 rrsagent, make minutes 14:30:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/09/15-ag-minutes.html Adam 14:34:40 Patrick_H_Lauke has joined #ag 14:36:53 agenda+ WCAG 2 proposed changes (review before 21 September) (https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2026JulSep/0179.html) 14:37:18 agenda? 14:37:32 agenda order is 1, 2, 6, 3, 4, 5 14:37:35 agenda? 14:53:46 Dirk has joined #ag 14:57:05 Zamir has joined #ag 14:57:31 present+ 14:57:43 bbailey has joined #ag 14:57:47 Bernardo has joined #ag 14:57:55 present+ 14:58:01 present+ 14:58:19 zakim, agenda? 14:58:19 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 14:58:20 1. Introductions [from Adam] 14:58:20 2. Announcements [from Adam] 14:58:20 6. WCAG 2 proposed changes (review before 21 September) (https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2026JulSep/0179.html) [from Adam] 14:58:20 3. New draft of WCAG2Mobile (https://w3c.github.io/matf/) [from Adam] 14:58:22 4. Conformance Subgroup outbrief [from Adam] 14:58:22 5. Subgroup breakouts, if time remains [from Adam] 14:58:45 JamesH has joined #ag 14:58:49 present+ 14:58:55 ahick has joined #ag 14:59:15 Heather has joined #ag 14:59:26 present+ 14:59:33 filippo-zorzi has joined #ag 14:59:47 present+ 14:59:47 rrsagent, make minutes 14:59:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/09/15-ag-minutes.html kevin 15:00:03 present+ 15:00:22 shadi has joined #ag 15:00:29 present+ 15:00:32 present+ 15:00:39 Ben_Tillyer has joined #ag 15:00:48 present+ 15:00:50 present+ 15:00:55 LoriO has joined #ag 15:00:59 Helen has joined #ag 15:01:01 present+ 15:01:04 present+ 15:01:12 present+ 15:01:25 GreggVan has joined #ag 15:01:25 JJ has joined #ag 15:01:26 present+ 15:01:28 present+ 15:01:47 present+ 15:01:47 ShawnT has joined #ag 15:01:48 AshleeF has joined #ag 15:01:51 present+ 15:01:57 present+ 15:02:06 present+ 15:02:10 Lia has joined #ag 15:02:10 Charles has joined #ag 15:02:11 scribe+ 15:02:17 janina has joined #ag 15:02:20 present+ 15:02:21 present+ 15:02:22 present+ 15:02:23 AWK has joined #ag 15:02:32 present+ 15:03:00 present+ 15:03:00 present+ 15:03:03 zakim, next item 15:03:03 agendum 1 -- Introductions -- taken up [from Adam] 15:03:10 Adam: Introductions? 15:03:21 Laura_Carlson has joined #ag 15:03:38 zakim, next item 15:03:38 agendum 1 was just opened, Adam 15:03:43 zakim, close item 1 15:03:43 agendum 1, Introductions, closed 15:03:44 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:03:44 2. Announcements [from Adam] 15:03:44 present+ Laura_Carlson 15:03:54 sam-estoesta has joined #ag 15:03:59 Jeremy has joined #ag 15:04:05 present+ 15:04:07 present+ 15:04:24 https://www.w3.org/wbs/35422/2026-taskforce-setup/ 15:04:28 Adam: Announcements - 1) Two new task forces - assertions and guidance documents. Survey sent last week, will remain open until end of day UTC (8 PM EST US). 15:04:38 BrianE has joined #ag 15:04:39 ...link to survey above. please complete survey 15:04:51 Azlan has joined #ag 15:05:00 present+ 15:05:01 present+ 15:05:13 present+ 15:05:15 https://www.w3.org/wbs/35422/tpac2026/ 15:05:20 ... 2) Second survey launching today; email to come. TPAC is end of October in Dublin, Ireland with virtual attendance options. Survey asks who will be attending TPAC. Link above. 15:05:23 present+ 15:05:32 Detlev has joined #ag 15:05:39 present+ 15:05:55 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WkYBc_9PowZRcxp1ld13jkA2pHd-vvmeBf9sZzUDjJQ/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.4dps9tqu16et 15:06:06 ...3) Question being address - how do we define quorum for subgroups? Discussed in editor's meeting last week. The answer is 3. Subgroup leads, check that out; link above. 15:06:18 https://w3c.github.io/wcag3/guidelines/ 15:06:21 Atya has joined #AG 15:06:26 shadi has joined #ag 15:06:36 ...4) WCAG 3.0 working draft was published to the world on Sept 10. Thank you all for getting to this milestone. 15:06:42 q+ 15:06:47 also https://w3.org/tr/wcag3 15:06:48 ack hdv 15:07:13 https://lnkd.in/p/dHS4DZxy 15:07:20 hdv: Chairs put out a message on LinkedIn that explains about how these publications came out, and what's new, what's specific about the performance model. Link provided above. 15:07:23 Stephanie has joined #ag 15:07:26 zakim, next item 15:07:26 agendum 2 -- Announcements -- taken up [from Adam] 15:07:28 anton has joined #ag 15:07:32 zakim, close item 2 15:07:32 agendum 2, Announcements, closed 15:07:33 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:07:33 6. WCAG 2 proposed changes (review before 21 September) (https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2026JulSep/0179.html) [from Adam] 15:07:35 zakim, next item 15:07:35 agendum 6 -- WCAG 2 proposed changes (review before 21 September) (https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2026JulSep/0179.html) -- taken up [from Adam] 15:07:37 joryc has joined #ag 15:07:58 Adam: WCAG2. New batch of proposed changes. Patrick sent an email. Patrick? 15:08:25 Present+ 15:08:37 erinevans has joined #ag 15:08:40 Patrick_H_Lauke: Usual reminder. Email went out last week; one more week to respond to the current batch. Note there's one errata about chaining from best practice to recommended practice, or avoid the word altogether. 15:08:43 present+ 15:09:04 zakim, next item 15:09:04 agendum 3 -- New draft of WCAG2Mobile (https://w3c.github.io/matf/) -- taken up [from Adam] 15:09:18 HaTheo has joined #AG 15:09:26 Graham has joined #ag 15:09:31 present+ 15:09:33 Adam: WCAG2Mobile presentation; guest speaker. 15:09:35 present+ 15:10:05 JJ: Thanks for having me; I'm the facilitator of the mobile accessibility task force. We are at a point to publish our second draft. 15:10:23 ...want to cover the difference with WCAG and WCAG2ICT, and also explain the changes since the last publication. 15:10:35 WCAG2Mobile presentation (PDF): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-No4cggicWYDydUwD_nrYSq0BUrAPWW/view 15:10:36 ...(sharing screen) link above. 15:10:41 present+ 15:10:44 Slideset: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-No4cggicWYDydUwD_nrYSq0BUrAPWW/view 15:10:46 [slide 1] 15:10:57 [slide 2] 15:10:58 jtoles has joined #ag 15:11:05 present+ 15:11:07 LenB has joined #ag 15:11:11 present+ 15:11:27 JJ: [Reading Scope of WCAG2Mobile] 15:12:05 Matt_King has joined #ag 15:12:16 julierawe has joined #ag 15:12:21 present+ 15:12:34 present+ 15:12:43 [slide 3] 15:13:00 ...[Reading slide 3: Why this is neither WCAG nor WCAG2ICT] 15:13:02 rrsagent, make minutes 15:13:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/09/15-ag-minutes.html Matt_King 15:13:09 Rayianna has joined #ag 15:13:14 Present+ 15:13:39 q+ 15:14:50 [slide 4] 15:14:55 ...[Reading slide 4: WCAG already covers mobile] 15:15:33 q+ 15:16:00 [slide 5] 15:16:32 ...[Reading slide 5: Where we are] Shows table with 4 columns: Guidance, Date, Success Criteria, and Key Terms 15:16:36 present+ 15:18:02 [slide 6] 15:18:13 ...[Reading slide 6: Changes between First and Second Draft] 15:18:29 HTML diff for first draft vs second draft: https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2F2025%2FDNOTE-wcag2mobile-22-20250506%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fmatf%2F 15:18:41 [slide 7] 15:19:17 ...[Reading slide 7: Key Terms] Shows links to key terms, and a diagram showing 'Layers and responsibilities in mobile applications' 15:20:31 ...note the HTML diff does not show this diagram, you have to open the edits draft to view the image. 15:21:15 [slide 8] 15:21:44 ...[Slide 8: Success Criteria]. Some have a few notes, some are new terms. 15:22:24 ...[Reading slide 9: Feedback]. Github link and email list. 15:22:24 [slide 9] 15:22:47 Feedback: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues or public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org 15:22:56 q? 15:23:03 Laura_Carlson has joined #ag 15:23:03 ack GreggVan 15:23:27 GreggVan: 1) Mobile task force has done a tremendous job of exploring this area and bringing this to light over the years as mobile has migrated. 15:23:43 ...Unfortunately, the Mobile Task Force also migrated into a strange pattern I'm afraid. 15:24:00 ...WCAG is a standard WCAG2 ICT is a note about how you can apply WCAG in other places. 15:24:11 ...It doesn't have provisions or requirements or things like this, it has advice. 15:25:00 ...I'm not sure what the purpose is now. In your discussion, you were saying we have WCAG, we have WCAG2ICT was a standard that you put alongside WCAG, and it's not; it's just a note about how to use WCAG. 15:25:23 They are different things. You should have been saying 'what's the difference between WCAG and EN 301 549 and us?' 15:25:48 ...The answer is there's nothing in EN that already includes us. What is the purpose now? 15:26:24 ...This report, this note, I'm worried that people will think that these are the guidelines to follow for mobile, when they're aren't because they aren't complete. 15:26:49 ...They're missing all the stuff that's pointed out in WCAG2ICT. You need a full standard like EN 301 549. 15:27:12 Jeremy has joined #ag 15:27:25 ...What is the perceived purpose of your document now that EN 301 549 is out, it did draw from your work, but I don't know why it's continuing on as a note. 15:27:35 Rayianna has left #ag 15:27:42 q+ to say that it follows the same approach as WCAG2ICT, highlighting how to apply in a mobile native-app context. 15:27:55 ...I'm trying to figure out what it is, where we're going with this, and worried that at the end, someone is going to attempt to say, this is what should be used to guide work. 15:28:05 ...If it's a techniques document, that would be useful. I don't understand. 15:28:29 "This document is not sufficient by itself to ensure accessibility in mobile applications — as a web standard, WCAG does not fully cover all accessibility requirements for non-user interface aspects of platform software, user interface components as individual items, or closed functionality (where there is no assistive technology to communicate 15:28:29 programmatic information)" 15:28:34 q? 15:28:38 Ben_Tillyer has joined #ag 15:28:43 ...One final comment, you have AT at level two in your stack, and you have the operating system at level five or size? You have to figure out where AT in two places of your stack. 15:28:59 Adam: Jan Jaap, would you like to respond? 15:29:16 +q 15:30:01 JJ: Yes, I fully understand the difference between WCAG and WCAG2ICT. I don't mean to compare them, but it's mostly you can understand how you can apply WCAG or how to confirm WCAG as a mobile app developer. 15:30:31 ...the idea for WCAG2Mobile is to provide a more narrow scope compared to WCAG2ICT and provide extra context and extra notes for mobile app developers. 15:31:06 ... I understand that we are too late for the latest EN standard to use any of our guidance. We are working on WCAG 3, so I do realize WCAG2Mobile is in a bit of an odd position. 15:31:36 ack Patrick_H_Lauke 15:31:43 ...our idea is still applicable, and we have a few active participants. There's a huge need for mobile app developers so they can better understand and interpret success criteria and apply them. 15:31:50 Patrick: slide 2 Scope of WCAG2Mobile: "Mobile web apps — websites and progressive web apps in a mobile browser" ... but these *are* already covered by WCAG 2.2 as is, right? (in reference to slide 4 "WCAG already covers mobile"). "Mostly true for mobile web apps." what's the delta, and can that be added directly in WCAG 2.2 itself. 15:32:19 Patrick_H_Lauke: Pasted slide text above - Wanted to check if these are covered by WCAG 2.2, correct? 15:32:44 ...There is a reference to slide 4 where it talks about WCAG already covers mobile. It does mention that it's mostly true for mobile web apps. 15:33:09 ...Wanted to check if there is a delta when you say 'mostly' and if so, can that be added to WCAG 2.2? 15:34:16 kenneth - would it be possible to have a "hide the unchanged SCs" button? 15:34:28 +1 to Patrick_H_Lauke on shortening 15:34:44 ...Is that at least for me, looking over the document the vast majority provides comments by principle and guideline. I think there's a few cases where it provides guidance and not redefine with only small clarification. 15:35:02 JJ: For the first point, in the current document, there's no specific deviations for mobile web content or mobile web apps. 15:35:26 ...Our guidance also relates to your second question which is that a lot indeed applies directly as written in WCAG2ICT. 15:35:58 ...We first focused on labeling all success criteria if we expect them to have a small, medium, or large deviation. In the first draft we picked up all the ones that we labeled as small deviation. 15:36:08 ...in this draft, we picked up most of the ones labeled as medium deviation. 15:36:39 ...what's left for the fourth draft are the ones with large deviation. We expect those remaining success criteria that we will see more deviation and maybe also for web and examples of the criteria. 15:37:04 ack alastairc 15:37:04 alastairc, you wanted to say that it follows the same approach as WCAG2ICT, highlighting how to apply in a mobile native-app context. 15:37:15 ...We do see that there's a chance there is more deviation and also good point about providing a different view. Maybe we could filter or some other kind of toggles where you could apply directly as written. 15:37:39 q+ 15:37:40 ...Good suggestions and we can look for how we can make it more effect for people that are just looking for the actual changes. 15:37:47 ack janina 15:37:58 q+ 15:38:10 LauraM has joined #ag 15:38:14 q? 15:38:15 alastairc: I think the values comes from making WCAG easier to understand because it has more of an explanation. 15:38:17 ack shadi 15:38:18 present+ 15:38:38 shadi: I can appreciate the awkwardness, but I think this work is addressing an important gap that we have right now. 15:38:39 s/easier to understand/easier to understand for mobile devs 15:38:49 q+ on WCAG 3 and mobile 15:39:04 ...My question is really to what degree is the group actively reviewing WCAG 3 drafts to make sure that we won't need such a guidance document in the future. 15:39:26 q+ -- Mic issue resolved! 15:39:28 ...Any thoughts on the direction of WCAG is taking with respect to the techniques? 15:39:33 q++ janina 15:39:34 q+ 15:39:39 qq+ janina 15:39:41 +1 to shadi ... we want to avoid the spec being still written with focus on web and then requiring some retcon to "...and this is how you apply it to native applications..." 15:39:44 q+ to consider our terminology 15:39:46 q+ to say that we have plans to have several groups review content 15:39:54 JJ: We haven't done as much of reviewing as much of WCAG 3 as we probably should have been doing, mostly because we are focusing on completing this draft. 15:40:01 q- + 15:40:08 s/focus on web/focus on web content in a user agent 15:40:12 q- 15:40:34 ...Now that this has been finished, we have on our agenda next week to review WCAG 3 (recent version). Mostly myself and Tanya to do a thorough review. 15:40:43 ack janina 15:40:43 janina, you wanted to react to shadi and to consider our terminology 15:40:44 +1 to feedback by Mobile TF! 15:40:52 ... We will provide feedback from the Mobile Task Force on the latest draft somewhere in the next couple of weeks. 15:41:32 janina: My top level concern is that I'm not clear what it is that we're writing here. We have normative guidance, we've started calling those standards and that's probably ok. 15:41:33 q- janina 15:41:52 ...We're meeting some pretty strict requirements to make those, and they must have statements with the word must in capital letters. 15:42:01 The document states "It provides informative guidance (guidance that is not normative and does not set requirements)." 15:42:14 ...We're meeting RFC 2119 and its successors and so forth. But then we also publish notes. I'm still unclear. 15:42:47 janina - it is an informative note, it is what you're asking for. 15:43:06 WCAG is the normative spec. but WCAG *has* been used to also evaluate non-"web in a user agent" content. so this NOTE tries to provide a way to interpret some of "web in user agent" specific language to make it apply to native software as well, when using WCAG to evaluate those 15:43:14 +1 to much of what janina said 15:43:16 ...Is the level of usefulness to app developers and especially to end users, we should not call it a standard, we should call it best practices, or techniques; it is far more powerful. 15:43:29 q? 15:43:30 Adam: The short answer is that the document is an informative group note. 15:43:36 +1 to avoiding normative language in notes 15:43:40 ack GreggVan 15:43:47 janina: We need to be careful with our vocabulary. 15:43:52 ...Thank you for the clarification 15:43:56 janina - it refers to the SCs in WCAG, so it really has to mention them! 15:44:23 GreggVan: I think all the work to date is not too late for EN. All the work you've been doing and all the discussion. My question was about going forward. 15:45:02 q+ on audience being mobile developers / testers who try to apply WCAG to native mobile 15:45:05 ...What is the audience for this document? That's the difference. The developers are interested in the rules, the things they need to follow and what the techniques I can use to meet the things I have to follow. 15:45:43 ...The standards bodies creating the standards and who wants to incorporate these. 15:46:15 q+ 15:46:15 ...WCAG2ICT is useful only to one audience, and that is people who are going to use WCAG to write their other parts of their standard. 15:46:36 i don't think anybody talked about this being useful to users... 15:46:50 ...This discussion today, that whole point seems to have been missed when we're talking about this mobile document, it's not useful to (end?) users. 15:46:59 it's useful for developers and auditors 15:47:11 ...WCAG can only be applied to content in a mobile browser where it's actually pulling web content where you have a user agent. 15:47:17 Are we missing the number of digital professionals looking to make their mobile digital products more accessible to users with disabilities? It's those people who read this document 15:47:23 Jon_Avila has joined #ag 15:47:33 present+ 15:47:48 ... Every other use of WCAG for mobile is invalid because it's scoped only to be web content. When you walk outside of that there's a whole bunch of other things you're supposed to do. 15:47:50 -1 to limiting scope like that 15:48:12 WCAG2Mobile does not create new rules, Gregg... 15:48:28 ...Suggest that you restructure the whole thing and suggest to look at the techniques. 15:48:53 As I understanding it EN 301 549 doesn't have a section that covers 'mobile' and the EU legislation requires that 'mobile' meet this 15:48:53 There will be a MATF session at TPAC on Thursday 29 October 2026: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/09e26708-7a73-475d-acc5-510d38f359b2/ to discuss some of these topics, including ACT / Techniques 15:48:58 ack Rachael 15:48:58 Rachael, you wanted to say that we have plans to have several groups review content 15:49:00 ...WCAG 3 talks about ambitions, as soon as you walk out of the web, you also need to consider telecom. 15:49:20 ack alastairc 15:49:20 alastairc, you wanted to comment on audience being mobile developers / testers who try to apply WCAG to native mobile 15:49:21 q+ 15:49:34 The intended audience is not users, but app developers and app auditors as Patrick_H_Lauke mentioned above 15:49:38 Rachael: In our schedule, we have plans for mobile review and internationalization review and immersive review. There are a series of groups that will be asked to review the provisions when we get to that point. 15:50:16 alastairc: On the audience bit, always intend to be people like mobile developers and testers who are trying to apply WCAG to native mobile and the in-between stages between web and mobile. 15:50:26 ack hdv 15:50:29 ...I see the value in it. It's not trying to expand out as far as I can tell. 15:50:34 q+ 15:50:48 hdv: I wanted to push back on Greg's points. I'll summarize them as he cannot see an audience for this. 15:51:05 MATF would also love to expand to other topics, such as Techniques, etc. but we first want to focus on this Group Note, in a similar structure as WCAG2ICT, before we explore other areas. 15:51:26 again, audience is "developers and auditors". they HAVE been told "we'll use WCAG to evaluate your native mobile app" by legislators, effetcively. and they need a translation of some of the terms 15:51:33 +1 what hidde just said 15:51:33 ...The Dutch government is monitoring the EU regulation. There are no mention of mobile apps in the EN. There's a lot of very practical questions that people who are building apps. 15:51:51 ...People auditing apps, like Patrick was mentioning, they don't know how to answer them. 15:51:52 +1 to being a user of this document 15:51:58 +1 to that 15:52:05 ack shadi 15:52:08 +1 to hdv 15:52:11 +1 to hdv 15:52:17 ...We are a government where we are monitoring regulation, and we very much need this kind of thing. I imagine other governments are also doing the same. 15:52:33 ...this gives us that practical angle on auditing and building apps accessibly. 15:52:44 +1 to hdv that this guidance is very useful to monitoring bodies, it's very relevant to us in the UK too while interpreting WCAG to app testing 15:52:51 ack GreggVan 15:52:59 ShawnT: I feel that a lot of the concerns that have been raised so far are directly addressed in Section 1.2 currently called excluded from scope. 15:53:02 Wonder whether Sec 1.2 is underscoped? Mail could be app or web; RTC likewise; Zoom calls to this meeting likewise! 15:53:16 shadi: I feel that a lot of the concerns that have been raised so far are directly addressed in Section 1.2 currently called excluded from scope. 15:53:38 GreggVan: How do you apply WCAG to web apps? and the answer is that you don't; WCAG is about web content. 15:53:41 q+ 15:53:44 GreggVan - people apply WCAG to native mobile apps every day, and are required to... 15:53:47 q+ 15:54:08 Gregg ... but the *reality* is that people DO apply WCAG to mobile native apps. EN just handwaves and says "apply WCAG". so wcag2mobile provides the little bit of glue 15:54:27 Is a web app not a subset of web content? 15:54:27 ...If you want to talk about how to do it in web apps, you should be looking at EN 301 549, which does cover web apps completely, covers it in applications and it covers the web that our web is in web, and everything else is software 15:54:32 -1 to answereing that question with "you don't". In my opinion, completely harmful to suggest that and makes accessibility professionals jobs 10x harder in organisations that aren't bought in. 15:54:42 a web app IS web content 15:54:45 q+ to suggest underscoped 15:54:48 Aren't web apps web content? 15:54:55 s/answereing/answering 15:54:57 Tell that to the EU who have made EN apply to mobile apps 15:55:01 ...the reality is that people apply WCAG to mobile apps, and that is exactly the problem. You're applying something out of scope for what it is intended for. That's the problem. 15:55:28 ...Example: there are telecom apps and other types of apps and no one is talking about any of those. 15:55:29 Gregg EN 301 549 effectively just uses WCAG for its functional performance criteria 15:55:44 ack hdv 15:55:46 ...My concern is about the misuse of it. 15:56:09 sorry, need to drop... 15:56:13 hdv: Greg, I think you're confusing web apps with native apps as many people are pointing out. 15:56:26 Patrick_H_Lauke has left #ag 15:56:34 ack shadi 15:56:35 ADA Title II and Section 504 rules use WCAG to apply to mobile apps 15:57:10 ...Using it for native apps, that's wrong. Theoretically, it cannot be done. We are trying to address that reality, and this is a document to do that. It is useful for governments and I think for many others. 15:57:27 q? 15:57:34 ack janina 15:57:34 janina, you wanted to suggest underscoped 15:58:01 UK law says that public sector mobile apps need to meet WCAG 2.2 AA (native, cross platform, hybrid or web) so we have no choice but to apply WCAG to mobile 15:58:09 shadi: My personal opinion, as an editor of EN, is because it applies to the broad scope of 'software' whereas the document is trying to focus on a very narrow thing, which I agree is hard to define and hard to describe. 15:58:22 ... I think it's addressing a real gap that developers have in their day-to-day work. 15:58:30 Noting that DOJ web rule makes several references to WCAG2ICT but none to WCAG2Mobile 15:58:31 https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/04/24/2024-07758/nondiscrimination-on-the-basis-of-disability-accessibility-of-web-information-and-services-of-state 15:58:37 s/as an editor/as part of the editing committee 15:58:51 present+ 15:58:55 bbailey - we haven't published a final WCAG2mobile yet 15:59:04 bbailey - WCAG2Mobile is still a draft and was first published in 2025 15:59:04 janina: Thank you for the clarification. I would strongly suggest reconsidering broadening the scope. I think we are under scoped. 15:59:15 q+ 15:59:28 Adam: Thank you everyone for a good discussion. When we send the minutes after this meeting, please review them, and the materials. Gather thoughts for follow up discussion. 16:00:13 Patrick - you said "Gregg EN 301 549 effectively just uses WCAG for its functional performance criteria" You clearly have not read EN 301 549. WCAG is quoted in its entiretly (including it conformance) is included in EN 301 549 and WCAG2ICT is also used for all the non web sections. 16:00:16 My point, I think, is that targeting developers rather than regulators is on point. 16:00:19 JJ: Main point is indeed you're making informative guidance. We're not looking to replace any standard or become a standard. We're aiming to fill the gaps. We are looking to provide information to apply it to mobile applications. 16:01:03 ...We are looking to keep the structure and the scope similar to WCAG2ICT and once we've managed to complete that and become a group note, we can look into additional areas. 16:01:21 Adam: Time for a break! Resume in 5 minutes. 16:04:45 Relevant to janina's comment on using Zoom via browser or native app—a personal anecdote—such an important point because users expect each option to relatively the same, but Zoom is definitely not. Personally, I HAVE to use the native app because (last I checked) there aren't options for customizing the look of live captions in the browser 16:04:45 version. This kind of thing happens with way more products than folks think. I hope the group gives special consideration to whether or not WCAG2Mobile is underscoped. 16:05:08 Hi Wendy. I should not have phrased it that way. But Is it not inappropriate then for patrick to state something that is patently not true? EN 301 549 users 508 not WCAG for its functional performance criteria -- and includes WCAG in its entirety. l apologize for not saying just that -- but I can see no way that someone could have read EN 301 549 and then stated something that was completely inaccurate. 16:05:36 GreggVan - I'm 99.9% sure Patrick has digested EN301 549 several times, and knows WCAG is quoted there. I think he meant that the EN uses WCAG for the provisions. 16:05:42 scribe- 16:05:42 giacomo-petri has joined #ag 16:06:38 zakim, choose a scribe 16:06:38 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Patrick_H_Lauke 16:06:43 zakim, choose a scribe 16:06:43 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose bbailey 16:06:49 I think I have seen Patrick read EN... in person 16:06:55 scribe+ 16:06:59 q? 16:07:02 ack GreggVan 16:07:04 agenda? 16:07:11 zakim, next item 16:07:11 agendum 4 -- Conformance Subgroup outbrief -- taken up [from Adam] 16:07:19 Adam: picking up outbrief 16:07:27 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1VEseKbanZFwK1XKl-GS72IJOszBn2LLFjsc3iC2w33k/edit?slide=id.p#slide=id.p 16:07:34 Slideset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1VEseKbanZFwK1XKl-GS72IJOszBn2LLFjsc3iC2w33k/edit?slide=id.p#slide=id.p 16:07:45 [slide 1] 16:07:47 alastairc: working from slides... 16:07:50 [slide 2] 16:08:39 alastairc: subgroup transitioning to task force 16:08:40 [slide 3] 16:08:47 ... name may change 16:10:28 alastairc: binary nature of SC might be better addressed by testing and reporting guidance; look for people following this advice when testing and reporting ... 16:10:50 [slide 4] 16:11:01 ... using elements of wcag 3 such as level and recommendations from wcag 3 16:11:02 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BuZOGxddoZbPRmPB-CoNVfqSCiD0Cm3oaGeDQ3yJRI4/edit?tab=t.wj9t3g2twiza 16:11:23 long version above 16:11:34 My point that you (Adam) asked me to put into chat. It is not what is in the mobile document that is the problem. it is what is not in that doc. WCAG is incomplete outside of web content. so anything using WCAG outside of web content - needs to include all of the non-web aspects. so you can review the mobile document and agree with all of it -- but it still should not be used by practioners - or regulators - since it is incomplete. 16:11:55 present+ 16:12:15 What SHOULD Be done is a Mobile note on EN 301 549 which is more complete but may need additional help 16:12:17