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14:38:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:38:28 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:39:01 <Rachael> agenda+ Introductions
14:39:15 <Rachael> agenda+ Announcements - WCAG2ICT reminder https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/912
14:39:31 <Rachael> agenda+ Taskforce kickoff (Assertions & Guidance Document) https://www.w3.org/wbs/35422/2026-taskforce-setup
14:41:06 <Rachael> regrets: Stephanie S, Hidde, Andrew K, Brain E
14:47:06 <Rachael> agenda+  Internationalization approach [20 minute] https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1qeMPo8a9bQ9yBvk0Ph4YJ15hjyYD3wE61KHcMHtkUJA/edit?slide=id.g3fa5a187f93_0_5#slide=id.g3fa5a187f93_0_5
14:47:19 <Rachael> agenda+ What to do about the term "mobile" - https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/851
14:47:27 <Rachael> agenda+ Subgroup work
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15:02:32 <kevin> zakim, who is on the call?
15:02:32 <Zakim> Present: Dirk, MURATA, Adam, Nicki, shadi, Helen, JamesH, Rachael, GreggVan, Heather, wendyreid, filippo-zorzi, CClaire, Francis, LoriO, HaTheo, Eloisa, Charles, Zamir, JeroenH,
15:02:33 <bbailey> present+
15:02:36 <Zakim> ... kevin, alastairc
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15:03:19 <Rachael> scribe: Detlev
15:03:20 <Detlev> present+
15:03:24 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 1
15:03:24 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introductions -- taken up [from Rachael]
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15:03:40 <Detlev> Rachael: introductions?
15:03:44 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 2
15:03:44 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Announcements - WCAG2ICT reminder https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/912 -- taken up [from Rachael]
15:04:23 <Detlev> alastairc: Please review the WCAG2ICT update
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15:04:41 <Makoto_U> present+
15:04:55 <wendyreid> present+
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15:05:05 <Detlev> Rachael: CfC for WCAG 3 new draft has closed without objections
15:05:07 <Azlan> present+
15:05:18 <Rachael> zakim, take up next item
15:05:18 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introductions -- taken up [from Rachael]
15:05:26 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 3
15:05:26 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Taskforce kickoff (Assertions & Guidance Document) https://www.w3.org/wbs/35422/2026-taskforce-setup -- taken up [from Rachael]
15:05:28 <julierawe> And we appreciate your leadership!
15:06:30 <Detlev> Rachael: Two new task forces: 1) assertions 2) guidance documents (testing reporting, policy guidance)
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15:07:03 <Detlev> ...policy subgroup will be transistioned to task force
15:07:13 <Matt_King> q+
15:07:24 <Detlev> Rachael: lest us know if you are interested in participating
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15:07:34 <kevin> s/lest/let
15:07:34 <Rachael> ack Matt_King
15:07:43 <Detlev> ...please fill out the survey and even respond if you are not interested
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15:08:00 <alastairc> q+
15:08:09 <LauraM> present+
15:08:11 <Detlev> Matt_King: guidance name for TF could be confusing
15:08:23 <alastairc> q-
15:08:25 <Rachael> ack alastairc
15:08:36 <Detlev> Rachael: TF will write goal statement to sort that out
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15:08:49 <Detlev> alastairc: we were struggling to fing a good name
15:08:55 <bbailey> q+ to inquire which subgroups are on another 8-week run
15:09:05 <Rachael> ack bruce
15:09:10 <alastairc> s/fing/find
15:09:23 <Detlev> bbailey: which subgroups will be closing?
15:09:35 <alastairc> The current policy one will wrap up soon, but the provisions ones will continue.
15:09:52 <jtoles> present+
15:09:57 <AshleeF> present+
15:09:59 <Detlev> Rachael: subgroups working on rquirements will work longer, but we will try to get eight weeks check-ins more regularly
15:10:25 <Detlev> Rachael: other concerns?
15:10:27 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 4
15:10:27 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Internationalization approach [20 minute]
15:10:28 <Zakim> ... https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1qeMPo8a9bQ9yBvk0Ph4YJ15hjyYD3wE61KHcMHtkUJA/edit?slide=id.g3fa5a187f93_0_5#slide=id.g3fa5a187f93_0_5 -- taken up [from Rachael]
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15:11:08 <Monica> present+
15:11:17 <Detlev> kevin: (shows presentation - please refer to contents there, link further up)
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15:12:28 <Detlev> kevin: was talking to experts on readability and internationalization
15:12:35 <Adam> Slideset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1qeMPo8a9bQ9yBvk0Ph4YJ15hjyYD3wE61KHcMHtkUJA/edit?slide=id.g3fa5a187f93_0_5#slide=id.g3fa5a187f93_0_5
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15:12:46 <Adam> [slide 26]
15:12:54 <Rayianna> present+
15:12:54 <Adam> [slide 27]
15:13:02 <MURATA> +q
15:13:25 <Adam> [slide 28]
15:13:36 <Detlev> kevin: showing slide 28
15:14:39 <MURATA> Here is an early draft of a11y-req-ja.  It has been discussed in JLTF of the I18N WG, the Global Inclusion CG, and the Text and Wording subgroup
15:14:39 <MURATA> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-sd-fmvZYXpyUPCVKYpWz-UEjbYxyitBrACGNmAS374/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.346bh8atyzru
15:14:42 <Adam> [slide 29]
15:14:55 <Detlev> kevin: trying to define requirements that ca be applied universally (like language orinetation)
15:15:48 <MURATA> Disagree
15:15:52 <Adam> [slide 30]
15:16:33 <MURATA> Disagree
15:17:18 <MURATA> Disagree
15:18:01 <Rachael> ack bbailey
15:18:01 <Zakim> bbailey, you wanted to inquire which subgroups are on another 8-week run
15:18:10 <Rachael> ack MURATA
15:18:21 <kirkwood> present+
15:18:25 <Detlev> kevin: A task will be to look at different languages to see how universal requiremtns can be added to
15:19:52 <Rachael> q+ to ask for more details
15:20:35 <kevin> -> https://deploy-preview-824--wcag3.netlify.app/guidelines/#text-orientation-controllable Preview of the example requirements
15:20:48 <Detlev> MURATA: Beginning with a universal approach will not work for japanese - there are different specific requirements - this is very different from what the internationalization WG has proposed. There were discussions with Kevin but no agreement
15:20:59 <julierawe> q+
15:21:33 <MURATA> Here is an early draft of a11y-req-ja.  It has been discussed in JLTF of the I18N WG, the Global Inclusion CG, and the Text and Wording subgroup
15:21:33 <MURATA> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-sd-fmvZYXpyUPCVKYpWz-UEjbYxyitBrACGNmAS374/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.346bh8atyzru
15:21:35 <Rachael> scribe+ Adam
15:21:42 <Adam> MURATA: I strongly disagree to this approach, I’m concerned beginning with a universal approach will ignore important aspects of language and culture, there is no consensus about this in the internationalization subgroup
15:21:47 <Rachael> ack Rachael
15:21:47 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to ask for more details
15:21:52 <wendyreid> q+
15:21:58 <Detlev> scribe: Detlev
15:22:13 <Adam> rrsagent, make minutes
15:22:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/09/08-ag-minutes.html Adam
15:22:37 <alastairc> q+ on modular spec not working for accessibility
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15:22:53 <Detlev> Rachael: can we have mire details, MURATA, why therei is such a stron conflict? This seems to provide a hook and allow to add specific things to adapt itto different languages
15:22:54 <Rachael> ack julierawe
15:23:09 <Adam> s/disagree to/disagree with/
15:23:28 <MURATA> +Q
15:23:37 <bbailey> s/we have mire details/we have more details/
15:23:49 <Rachael> regrets+ ShawnT
15:23:58 <bbailey> s/such a stron conflict/such a strong conflict/
15:24:12 <Detlev> julierawe: question for MURATA san: we had looked at the provision as a subgroup, thought it was headed in the right direction, some wording changes araounfwriting direction - though it just needed some fine-tning - what happened?
15:24:16 <Rachael> ack MURATA
15:24:45 <bbailey> s/itto/into/
15:24:56 <Detlev> MURATA: The requirement is fine - changing the writing mode horizontal to vertical and vice versa - but a universal approach was not discussed.
15:25:23 <Detlev> ...without knowing the culturwe well, you cannot develop a universal approach
15:25:25 <bbailey> s/araounfwriting/around writing/
15:25:34 <kevin> s/culturwe/culture/
15:25:56 <Detlev> ...without knowing things like segmentation on Japanese or compound words in German ,you cannot do it
15:26:10 <kevin> q+
15:26:14 <Rachael> ack wendyreid
15:27:09 <Detlev> wendyreid: MURATA san is the expert... what is problematic when you come from the epub context - how would we expect to work across other contexts, like websites?
15:27:17 <MURATA> +q
15:27:30 <shadi> +1 to wendyreid
15:27:39 <Detlev> ...changing text annotations - epub has conventions for that, but is this generally applicable?
15:28:13 <Detlev> ...we could recommendations that are familiar to epub like segmentation, but are difficult to apply to other contexts
15:28:14 <Rachael> ack alastairc
15:28:14 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on modular spec not working for accessibility
15:28:18 <Makoto_U> q+
15:29:06 <Detlev> alastairc: one aspect MURATA has mentioned before is having modular aspects - but that doesn't work in a regulatory environment
15:29:19 <Rachael> ack kevin
15:30:03 <alastairc> Oh, also, if the issue is based from human perception, that is a better place to start for creating universal requirements than going from the script.
15:30:12 <Charles> i really appreciate the presence of experts on this topic – and defer to them. but i hear ‘universal approach’ as ‘universal intent’ and not as ‘universal method’. and agree with MURATA that anything universal must require an understanding of the differences within that universe.
15:30:55 <Detlev> kevin: The approach from thinking from a universal perspective, sound out if it was a good idea - we need to then work out what works for the languages we know about - for others, we can define features for those we don't currently have in view -
15:31:02 <MURATA> q+
15:31:32 <Rachael> q+ to clarify terms and scope of this conversation
15:32:15 <Detlev> kevin: as to implementation challenges (Wendy): yes, true - there is a need to be able adust content (e.g. direction of reading) - but how it is done is still to be defined, may perhaps not be a core requirement
15:32:27 <Rachael> ack MURATA
15:32:29 <Detlev> ...we need to support the universality of WCAG
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15:33:07 <anton> present+
15:33:13 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
15:33:35 <Detlev> MURATA: Not sure if switching reading requirements like directionality I am not sure. Many requirements have never been implemented. First we need to define them, then see if they are doable and can be implemented in spec.
15:33:48 <alastairc> q+ on what requirements would be included, and the basis in human perception rather than scripts
15:34:39 <Rachael> ack Makoto_U
15:34:40 <Detlev> ...there are strong requirements but these may not be necessarily be incorporated in spec - but we need to define requirements that work for particular cultures
15:34:46 <Nicki> q+ to ask how the switching of orientation is an accessibility issue rather than something that affects all users (of that language)
15:35:30 <kevin> q+
15:35:42 <Detlev> Makoto_U: Comment on slide 28: web and mobile app person the example is confusing - do web pages need to have such mechanism? The japanese content would need such a change of direction
15:35:54 <Ben_Tillyer> q-
15:35:57 <MURATA> Some Japanese cannot read vertical writing at all,.
15:36:01 <Rachael> ack Rachael
15:36:01 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to clarify terms and scope of this conversation
15:36:08 <Detlev> ...ned to understand more details and scope of text directionality
15:36:09 <MURATA> q+
15:37:00 <CClaire> + 1 to Makoto that there should be no difference when we have different reading direction, same in Chinese character
15:37:14 <Detlev> Rachael: This slide deck was around how do we handle language-specific requirements - this is an example of an approach - instead of registries, we could take the approch "This applies when..." the word universal may be misunderstood here.
15:37:21 <bbailey> q?
15:37:30 <MURATA> https://japan-daisy-consortium.github.io/documents/en/writing_direction/DiscoveryoftheWritingDirection.html
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15:37:34 <erinevans> present+
15:38:05 <Detlev> kevin: It is one of the ongoing challenges how to provide text presentation provisions to be as inclusive as possible of application contexts
15:38:10 <Nicki> q-
15:38:33 <Detlev> kevin: one approach is republishing WCAG if we learn more - but that would be a maintenance issue
15:38:57 <Detlev> kevin: so the aim is to reduce the effort of maintance
15:39:01 <MURATA> ｑ＋
15:39:10 <MURATA> q+
15:39:34 <Detlev> Rachael: The idea was to put the more language-specifi information into the additional info like recommended practice, or guidance
15:39:57 <Rachael> ack alastairc
15:39:57 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on what requirements would be included, and the basis in human perception rather than scripts
15:39:58 <alastairc> ack me
15:39:59 <Detlev> kevin: we cannot cover everything in requirements, needs layers in recommendations
15:40:29 <Detlev> alastairc: if working up from scripts and languages in the world, this would we a difficult task
15:40:47 <Detlev> ...we can work from different requirements across PwD
15:40:51 <kevin> +1 to driving by the need not just the script/language
15:41:16 <Charles> note: there is also a tactile presentation of text.
15:41:55 <Detlev> alastairc: Anything in the core requirements to be used in regulation we have to be confident across languages and scripts - but there are different levels/tiers - like assertions: we worked on the readibility
15:42:03 <Makoto_U> s/japanese content would/Japanese web content would not/
15:42:10 <Rachael> ack kevin
15:42:15 <kevin> -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-sd-fmvZYXpyUPCVKYpWz-UEjbYxyitBrACGNmAS374/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.xabc6gr410ir Vertical and horizontal text
15:42:25 <CClaire> To add some comments to what Alastair just mentioned, understandable that we are not able to develop for all languages, but the first step might be to define/find the common for certain languages or group it, i.e. Chinese and Japanese
15:42:56 <Detlev> kevin: Rational to include horizontal / vertical: came fro mthe work MURATA san did, but it may not become a strong requirement
15:43:01 <Rachael> ack MURATA
15:43:02 <bbailey> q+
15:43:46 <Detlev> MURATA: wnat to mention doc from Japanes Daisy consortium has the requirement for switching horizontal vertical directions
15:44:23 <kevin> q+
15:44:31 <bbailey> Slide 28 requirement (as written) possibly onerous for English.
15:44:31 <Rachael> ack bbailey
15:44:38 <alastairc> s/wnat/want
15:44:43 <Detlev> ...working on Japanese accessibility requirements - people in these groups have looked at my requirements, others are creating similar things for other languages
15:45:20 <Rachael> ack kevin
15:45:27 <Detlev> bbailey: Some requirements are also difficult for the English language - annotation requirement may not be realistic
15:46:04 <MURATA> Agreed.  > Kevin
15:46:09 <Detlev> kevin: worth noting that CG can't publish normative materials
15:46:33 <CClaire> And I'm not sure if it is correct to say so, even though we have two directions to read Chinese, however, most of time when people create website or mobile app, horizontal reading is more popular nowaday. But you will see both Chinese character and English words are mixing in one sentence kind of thing so how to setup the size of font would be
15:46:33 <CClaire> interesting
15:46:36 <Rachael> q?
15:46:44 <Detlev> ...it would not be appropriate - we need to follow a course appropriate from charter and procedure perspectives
15:47:16 <Detlev> Rachael: presnetation was mainly meant to offer an example - we will circle back with the group to that
15:47:34 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 5
15:47:34 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- What to do about the term "mobile" - https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/851 -- taken up [from Rachael]
15:47:39 <MURATA> My biggest comment: begin with req documents for particular languages
15:49:01 <alastairc> MURATA - Any requirement coming from a particular language would need to be "universalised" to become a WCAG 3 core requirement. I.e. we'd need to establish (with support from i18n) that it works across languages/scripts.
15:49:05 <Detlev> Rachael: had conversation on email: concerns around the term "mobile". There is a github discussion on that - MATF will consider that. Please have a look and add points in the GitHub discussion - will be discussed in WG on Sept 22
15:49:58 <Detlev> Rachael: we want to go back to subgroup work after the break
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15:50:22 <Detlev> ...please stay to go in the breakout room
15:50:46 <Francis> q+
15:50:53 <Rachael> ack Francis
15:51:14 <Detlev> Francis: comment on quorum - how many do we need in the subgroups?
15:51:28 <alastairc> 3 for decisions, but 1 or 2 people can work on things!
15:51:37 <Detlev> Rachael: May be three - will come back with info
15:51:49 <GreggVan> q+
15:51:56 <Detlev> Kevin: it only concerns decisions, useful work can still be done
15:52:21 <kevin> q+
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15:52:58 <Detlev> GreggVan: those working on sign language: Google has released a text to sign feature for his phones - seems to work surprisingly well -  just a data point. If this is true, we're on the cusp of text-to-sign!
15:53:02 <AshleeF> It’s sign language to text — SL2T
15:53:08 <kevin> q-
15:53:13 <kevin> ack GreggVan
15:53:17 <Rachael> ack GreggVan
15:53:18 <Detlev> Rachael: Please shere link!
15:53:46 <Detlev> Rachael: entering into eight minute break now
15:54:22 <MURATA> I will go to bed.  Sorry!
15:54:32 <Dirk> that soundtrack is just getting better and better!
15:55:00 <AshleeF> GreggVan this is the link we've been reading in the SL subgroup, is it the same as yours? https://deepmind.google/blog/putting-sign-language-ai-into-users-hands/
15:59:14 <kirkwood> David McDonald did it
16:04:52 <GreggVan> Sorry  I  said it backwards.  The one on Pixel Phone is sign to text.    https://www.engadget.com/2234618/deepmind-newest-model-allows-pixel-11-devices-to-transcribe-sign-language-into-text/      Estimated to be about where Automatic Speech Recognition was in the 2000s.  "It works out of the box and lets you sign naturally and fluently. It gets some details wrong here and there, but in many cases, what you sign requires very little, if any, editing
16:04:52 <GreggVan>  of the text output afterward."
16:07:21 <bbailey> Inputs subgroup working document:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/18RDQH1piGOCjae1RTymHaP-M_2RXHoXF0WDHqYvw14w/
16:09:19 <GreggVan> for Text to Sign -- see  the following
16:09:38 <GreggVan> Signapse (UK) — Photorealistic AI signer. Their SignStream service handles both text-to-sign and sign-to-text, and they have Deaf staff in development, translation and leadership roles. BSL live in UK rail; DGS launch scheduled for September 2026, with ASL forthcoming.
16:09:38 <GreggVan> Site: https://www.signapse.ai · Videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1v61ua_zts (demo), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mv9YoZijNo (rail deployment), https://www.youtube.com/@signapse-ai/videos
16:09:40 <GreggVan> Kara Technologies (NZ) — Hyper-realistic MetaHuman avatars. Each sign is performed by a native Deaf signer, motion-captured, then reviewed; their Kara Notation System trains the AI on facial expression, spatial direction, timing and role-shifting rather than word-for-word mapping. Building a 10,000+ sign NZSL library for real-time emergency/transit use. Notable for its published position statement respecting WFD/WASLI concerns.
16:09:40 <GreggVan> Site: https://www.kara.tech/technology · Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx5-gwqy-tc (older but shows the avatar)
16:09:59 <GreggVan> Sign-Speak (US, Deaf-owned) — Not avatar-first, but the most complete bidirectional ASL system. Interprets ASL into spoken/written English and vice versa via a phone/tablet camera, no special hardware; piloted campus-wide at Syracuse in late 2025.
16:09:59 <GreggVan> Site: https://sign-speak.com · Pilot writeup: https://news.syr.edu/2025/11/12/university-piloting-ai-powered-asl-interpreting-service-sign-speak/
16:10:56 <GreggVan> Then there are a bunch of Commercial and real but narrower in scope?
16:11:09 <GreggVan> https://silencespeaks.io (
16:11:27 <GreggVan> https://www.handtalk.me/en/app/ ·
16:11:37 <GreggVan> https://simax.media ·
16:11:53 <GreggVan> https://www.signavatar.org
16:16:44 <GreggVan> Research to watch
16:17:13 <GreggVan> https://alangu.de/en/news/avatar-based-sign-language-translation
16:17:13 <GreggVan> https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/machine-learning/genasl-generative-ai-powered-american-sign-language-avatars/
16:17:29 <GreggVan> https://www.slxai.org/2026/workshop/bridging-gap-ai-avatars-sign-language-animation
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17:02:01 <Laura_Carlson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/09/08-ag-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
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