15:45:01 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star 15:45:05 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/08/20-rdf-star-irc 15:45:05 zakim, start meeting 15:45:05 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:45:06 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), AndyS 15:45:09 meeting: RDF and SPARQL Working Group 15:45:29 previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/08/13-rdf-star-minutes.html 15:45:30 next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/08/27-rdf-star-minutes.html 15:45:36 rrsagent, make logs public 15:45:43 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/11e4d020-9c58-4fff-83c5-37c9e2502295/20260820T120000/#agenda 15:45:43 clear agenda 15:45:44 agenda+ Horizontal Reviews Tracking & Followup 15:45:44 agenda+ Review of open PRs, available at -> 1 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 15:45:52 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:45:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/20-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS 15:46:02 present+ 15:46:07 agenda? 15:49:24 tl has joined #rdf-star 15:55:43 rubensworks has joined #rdf-star 15:58:15 niklasl has joined #rdf-star 15:58:45 present+ 15:58:58 fsasaki has joined #rdf-star 15:59:00 olaf has joined #rdf-star 15:59:54 present+ 16:00:11 present+ 16:00:12 present+ 16:00:31 scribe+ 16:00:37 present+ 16:00:42 present+ 16:01:06 pfps has joined #rdf-star 16:01:14 present+ 16:01:43 lisp has joined #rdf-star 16:01:47 present+ 16:02:03 present+ 16:02:22 present+ 16:02:25 regrets+ 16:02:40 regrets+ enrico 16:02:41 ora has joined #rdf-star 16:02:51 present+ 16:02:55 chair+ 16:03:00 regrets+ j22 16:03:09 Zakim, open item 1 16:03:09 agendum 1 -- Horizontal Reviews Tracking & Followup -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:03:12 doerthe has joined #rdf-star 16:03:17 present+ 16:04:21 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5?filterQuery=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+-label%3Aaction+-label%3A%22use+case%22+-label%3A%22ms%3Afuture-work%22+%22Horiz%22 16:04:38 Souri has joined #rdf-star 16:04:41 present+ 16:05:36 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5 simply add "Horizontal" as filter 16:06:13 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads/issues/93 16:06:13 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads/issues/93 -> Issue 93 Horizontal Reviews tracker for RDF N-Quads (by pchampin) [ms:CR] [Tracking] 16:07:30 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples/issues/79 16:07:31 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples/issues/79 -> Issue 79 Horizontal Reviews tracker for N-Triples (by pchampin) [ms:CR] [Tracking] 16:08:14 pchampin: we might ping them again 16:08:31 https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/138 16:08:31 https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/138 -> CLOSED Issue 138 rdf12-n-triples 2025-11-25 > 2025-12-23 (by ktk) [LC] [REVIEW REQUESTED] [pending] [s:rdf12-n-triples] 16:09:10 ktk: we should go through them and hint that they are very related 16:09:37 https://github.com/w3c/security-request/issues/110 16:09:37 https://github.com/w3c/security-request/issues/110 -> Issue 110 rdf12-n-triples 2025-11-25 > 2025-12-23 (by ktk) [REVIEW REQUESTED] [pending] [LC] 16:09:49 ... security is still open, maybe because we lack a threat model? 16:09:55 https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/1161 16:09:56 https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/1161 -> Issue 1161 WG New Spec: RDF 1.2 N-Triples (by pchampin) [Review type: horizontal review] 16:10:11 ... TAG is also still open 16:10:32 ... should we ping the TAG again? 16:11:28 pchampin: will check with Eve and Sarven 16:11:57 ktk: no feedback from security group on n-triples since 10 months 16:12:50 pchampin: probably depending on a better worked out threat model doc (to be provided by us) 16:13:17 s/Eve and/Yves and/ 16:13:37 q? 16:14:25 ... it's editorial work, probably not hugely complicated, but needs time... 16:15:32 ktk: we have to do threat model and internationalization to make progress on these 16:15:54 ... timeline for RDF/XML 16:16:14 ... can we alerady have a timeline for SPARQL? 16:16:31 andys: didn't have much time b/o other wg's 16:16:42 ora: what are we still missing in broad strokes? 16:17:23 andys: exists, variables, a lot of PRs 16:17:25 q+ 16:17:33 ack rubensworks 16:17:45 s/a lot of PRs/a lot of errata/ 16:18:19 q+ 16:18:21 rubenworks: for SPARQL would it be an option to set a deadline, and what doesn't meet the deadine would go into future work? 16:18:31 ack olaf 16:19:24 andys: maybe triage -> [???] 16:20:18 olaf: some formalization issues open, blank nodes being one of them 16:20:37 tomorrow +1 16:20:38 andys: meeting tomorrow, and we can do some triage 16:21:12 Zakim, next item 16:21:12 agendum 2 -- Review of open PRs, available at -> 1 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:21:17 s/ [???]/maintenance 16:21:28 ora: moving on to PRs 16:22:51 ... what about https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common/pull/21 16:22:52 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common/pull/21 -> PR 21 Add hljs configuration for TriG and SPARQL and a load highlighter utility function (by niklasl) 16:22:57 q+ 16:23:03 niklasl: yes 16:23:33 ora: does anybody review it? 16:23:58 ack AndyS 16:24:00 ... otherwise i can just go ahead and [make this go away] 16:24:25 andys: what means "vendorize"? 16:24:58 niklasl: using some vendor-specific, non-standard stuff 16:26:19 ... that stuff is MIT-licensed 16:26:35 ora: objections to merging this? 16:27:21 ... not hearing any objections, so suggest you go ahead and merge it 16:27:38 niklasl: maybe will improve the example file 16:27:41 q+ 16:27:57 ack olaf 16:28:01 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/410 16:28:01 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/410 -> PR 410 Algebra: add an explicit "distinct" flag to Aggregation() (by Tpt) 16:28:12 olaf: ther is a tool request https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/410 16:28:28 ... which is only missing Greggs review 16:28:57 gtw: back from holiday, will take a look 16:29:06 s/tool request/PR 16:29:10 s/Greggs/Greg's/ 16:29:23 ora: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/pull/157 16:29:23 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/pull/157 -> PR 157 Move the reifiedTriple syntactic sugar explanation into the note (by domel) 16:30:43 andys: comment by pchampin from 43 minutes ago 16:30:59 ora: we'll wait for pchampin 16:31:24 ... james, where are we with https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads/pull/108 16:31:25 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads/pull/108 -> PR 108 Undefined errors (by lisp) 16:31:45 ... maybe redundant with n-triples? 16:32:05 james: if teh same text is amenable top all teh others i could add it there as well 16:32:21 s/teh /the 16:32:51 ora: we approved n-triples, why wouldn't we use the same for all of these? 16:33:08 james: understood that to be the intent 16:33:21 andys: so we need to align the two texts 16:33:41 ora: james, can you make them all the same? 16:33:55 james: can do, will do 16:34:17 andys: needs care b/o TAG 16:34:54 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads/pull/108#issuecomment-5358467125 16:34:57 james: will replicate the changes to all files 16:35:14 fsasaki has joined #rdf-star 16:35:18 andys: that comment (above) needs consideration first 16:35:41 ora: james, please connect with pchampin 16:36:00 james: will do 16:36:07 ora: goddamn dark mode 16:36:34 ... niklas what's your take on it? 16:37:03 niklasl: think it can be merged 16:37:26 s/goddamn /https://github.com/w3c/rdf-primer/pull/24 16:39:38 ora: a few test related PRs - any of them ready to merge? 16:39:49 q+ 16:40:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/20-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:40:29 present+ 16:40:40 andys: gtw, can you take a look at https://github.com/w3c/rdf-tests/pull/356 16:40:40 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-tests/pull/356 -> PR 356 SPARQL: Set mf:specVersion on manifests and use IRIs (by Tpt) 16:40:46 gtw: will do 16:41:01 s|pull/24dark |pull/24 dark 16:41:09 q+ 16:41:25 ora: what about https://github.com/w3c/rdf-tests/pull/324 16:41:26 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-tests/pull/324 -> PR 324 manifest with rdf action model, revised with additional tests as per … (by lisp) 16:41:58 .... greg, are you happy with this? 16:41:58 gtw: will have to have a look, seems vague 16:42:06 s/vague/big/ 16:42:08 s/james: /lisp: /g 16:42:32 lisp: is a side effect of a discussion in the SPARQL 16:43:08 s/rubenworks/rubensworks/ 16:43:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/20-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:44:33 ... first version was generated by an LLM, later did let an LLM generate a requirements document and took that as input 16:45:20 ... but the group should think about if/how LLMs can be used in the context of our work 16:45:42 q+ 16:46:05 ... i made good experience with letting an LLM create requirements documents from specs 16:46:30 ... that PR is just a result of such an approach 16:47:20 ora: are you saying that the discussion so far are only in the abstract? 16:47:29 lisp: yes 16:47:39 ack rubensworks 16:48:05 rubenworks: made soem changes 16:48:14 ack lisp 16:48:17 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-tests/pull/366 16:48:18 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-tests/pull/366 -> PR 366 Add collection point for RDF 1.2 implementation reports (by rubensworks) 16:48:27 ack AndyS 16:48:56 andys: not comfortable with getting ahead to where W3C may go wrt LLMs 16:49:21 see https://www.w3.org/TR/llms-standards/ -> Use of Large Language Models in Standards Work: W3C Group Note 24 March 2026 16:49:41 q+ 16:49:54 ack TallTed 16:49:57 ... the results are so depending on the prompt, they have too many inconsistencies, basing tests on them would add consdierable risk 16:50:11 ora: can you give input to W3C 16:50:21 andys: maybe at TPAC 16:51:04 tallted: there is a related note (link above), just a couple of pages 16:51:26 ... use of LLMs is neither blessed nor cursed 16:51:56 s/consdierable/considerable/ 16:52:29 q+ 16:52:38 ack lisp 16:52:43 ktk: i do use it but i do see andy's point, but i also see james' point that there's only talk about talking about it. james, would you like to provide some input to the commitee? 16:53:25 lisp: would be easy for me to walk you through how 1.2 implementatuion was done, because it demosntartes a method which addresses one of andy's concerns and provides control 16:53:57 ktk: maybe we can have session where you demonstrate your approach? 16:54:08 ora: next week, this wg? 16:54:10 s/implementatuion/implementation/ 16:54:24 ktk: will put it on the agenda for next week 16:54:31 s/demosntartes/demonstrates/ 16:54:34 lisp: will be here 16:55:03 ora: maybe i'm a bit naive but i don't find this to be real rocket science 16:55:32 ... except if your so naive to take the LLM output as fact 16:55:37 andys: exactly 16:55:38 q+ 16:55:41 q+ 16:55:44 ack TallTed 16:55:57 ora: but you put _your_ name on it, not the LLM's output 16:56:32 tallted: very important that area experts control an LLM's output 16:57:46 ack lisp 16:58:44 lisp: key takeaway is that it's a search process and the quality of the result depends on the quality of the constraints the LLM is given 16:58:57 https://github.com/OpenLinkSoftware/ai-agent-skills/ 17:00:19 olaf has left #rdf-star 17:05:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/20-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed