13:56:12 RRSAgent has joined #ixml 13:56:17 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/08/18-ixml-irc 13:56:22 rrsagent, make logs public 13:56:32 Meeting: Invisible XML Community Group 13:56:39 Chair: Steven 13:56:39 Scribe: Norm 13:56:47 Regrets: Nico 13:57:39 john has joined #ixml 13:59:03 john0 has joined #ixml 13:59:12 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2026Aug/0007 13:59:14 Aljo has joined #ixml 13:59:19 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/07/21-ixml-minutes.html 13:59:31 rrsagent, make minutes 13:59:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/18-ixml-minutes.html Steven 13:59:41 norm has joined #ixml 14:00:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:00:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/18-ixml-minutes.html norm 14:01:01 Meeting: Invisible XML Community Group 14:01:07 Date: 18 August 2026 14:01:10 Chair: Steven 14:01:16 Scribe: Norm 14:01:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:01:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/18-ixml-minutes.html norm 14:01:38 rrsagent, here 14:01:38 See https://www.w3.org/2026/08/18-ixml-irc#T14-01-38 14:01:53 rrsagent, here 14:01:53 See https://www.w3.org/2026/08/18-ixml-irc#T14-01-53 14:02:29 Present: Steven, John, Alan, Norm, Bethan, David 14:04:25 Bethan: I do not consent to having my voice or likeness recorded for use on cloud-based LLMs. 14:04:58 Topic: Accept the minutes of the previous meeting 14:05:03 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/07/21-ixml-minutes.html 14:05:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:05:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/18-ixml-minutes.html norm 14:05:23 Accepted. 14:05:28 Topic: Review of open actions 14:05:58 2024-03-05c Continues 14:06:04 2026-07-11-a Completed 14:06:39 Topic: Status reports 14:06:56 Norman: Some updates with nineml and adding options. Working on the C# transpilation of nineml and good news just today. 14:06:56 Norm: I've done a bunch of things, working on getting C# transpiling working 14:07:55 Steven: I presented something about designing a language so that you can use iXML on it. 14:08:04 ... Creating a textual version of a doctype so that you can use iXML to create the documents. 14:08:19 ... Declarative Amsterdam has a couple of iXML talks in the works. 14:08:54 ... I'm doing a mini-tutorial. I'm working out a way to design a grammar so that you don't get tripped up by the problems of spacing causing ambiguity. 14:09:06 ... Will submit the paper to XML.com as well. 14:09:46 Steven: One of the papers accepted was from the students at Delpht. 14:09:55 ... They've moved to Codeberg as well. They are preparing a release. 14:10:05 ... They may announce it formally at Declarative Amsterdam. 14:10:19 Bethan: Do we know how they're doing against the test suite? 14:10:25 Steven: 80% was the last number I saw. 14:10:51 Topic: Symposium on iXML 14:11:03 Steven: All we really need to settle on are the dates. 14:11:39 It was 26/27 February last time. 14:11:55 Steven: So shall we go with the last Thursday and Friday, 25/26 February? 14:12:35 Steven: There's no hurry, we're a little earlier than last year. 14:12:52 John: Are we going to change the title? 14:13:10 Steven: That's my proposal, but we don't have to decide that now. 14:13:28 ACTION: Steven to prepare an initial call for presentations. 14:13:40 Steven: Announce it at the beginning of October. 14:13:46 ... Schedule as before. 14:14:04 Bethan: Would it make sense to reuse the CfP from last time? 14:14:12 Steven: Yep. 14:14:24 ACTION: Norm to confirm that submit@invisiblexml.org still works. 14:14:38 Bethan: I also think we should spread the load for presenting speakers and such. 14:14:43 Steven: Definitely. 14:15:50 Steven: We should also try to spread the load of making the video transcriptions. 14:16:09 Topic: Progress report on symposium output? 14:16:22 Bethan: Two to go and I have the intro sequence worked out. 14:17:54 Some discussion of the work involved. 14:18:44 Bethan: It's okay for English voices, but it has real trouble with speakers with stronger accents. 14:19:29 Some discussion of the accessibility aspects. 14:20:11 David: I may or not be the only person in this company who has impaired hearing; but I wonder if folks like me already have tools that can do it. 14:20:36 Bethan: Maybe, but it's not going to be prepared for a Dutch person speaking English and using technical terms. 14:21:07 ... That may be good enough for a meeting, but it's not going to be good for presentations. 14:21:31 Some discussion of the distinction between auto transcriptioning and proper subtitling. 14:22:26 Bethan: We want to avoid the 'disability dongle' which you hear discussed in the disability community. It's not a great attitude. 14:22:44 David: I understand. 14:23:11 ... The question was only about the value that is added by our doing the subtitling but I concur that value comes from our correcting things. 14:23:53 Bethan: I think the other thing that it adds is that it is a sign that we are willing to do that work. I do believe there's significant value add, but that's not the only value. 14:24:46 Norm: I don't think generating a transcript would be significantly less work anyway 14:24:50 Topic: New issues 14:24:56 + Update the test-catalog to include the source files 14:24:57 See https://codeberg.org/InvisibleXML/ixml/issues/379 14:24:57 See https://codeberg.org/InvisibleXML/ixml/pulls/380 14:26:21 John: I'm happy with that. 14:27:01 Accepted. 14:27:09 + Replace github links with equivalent codeberg links 14:27:09 See https://codeberg.org/InvisibleXML/ixml/pulls/376 14:27:41 Accepted. 14:27:52 John: Do we have a plan to remove the github. 14:28:26 Norm: I've made it say "we've moved" 14:28:32 + A simple grammar that matches UK postcodes 14:28:32 See https://codeberg.org/InvisibleXML/ixml/pulls/373 14:29:35 Accepted. 14:30:13 ACTION: Norm to update the example grammars section of the homepage 14:30:45 John: Can we have a disclaimer? 14:30:58 Norm: I'd have thought that was obvious from "sample" but I can take a look. 14:31:27 + A sample grammar for Gregorian dates 14:31:27 See https://codeberg.org/InvisibleXML/ixml/pulls/372 14:31:57 Norm: I'd like to leave this until next time. 14:32:37 Steven: Could we make a grammar that identifies the day of the week? Something to ponder. 14:33:09 Topic: Open issues 14:33:09 + #369 Namespaces in test catalogue still point to GitHub 14:33:09 https://codeberg.org/InvisibleXML/ixml/issues/369 14:33:11 See https://codeberg.org/InvisibleXML/ixml/pulls/371 14:35:56 Norm: I've made a PR to change the namespaces; I think we should accept it. But it will be require implementors to update their drivers. 14:36:05 John: You only have to change a couple of places. 14:36:36 ACTION: Norm to announce this change on the mailing list. 14:36:43 + #368 Add a symbol for "epsilon", don't allow absence of a symbol to be epsilon 14:36:43 https://codeberg.org/InvisibleXML/ixml/issues/368 14:37:19 ACTION: Norm to start an email discussion. 14:38:15 Bethan: I think "" would be thing. 14:38:47 David: If I've understood, () already works. The issue is avoiding "nothing" to match, | |. 14:39:01 ... So using "" would be two things. 14:39:32 Bethan: My concern about () is that semantically, we're still saying nothing matches epsilon, you just have to put parens around it. 14:39:38 Steven: It just makes the emptiness explicit. 14:40:27 Bethan: Depending on what you put in parens, you either have a sequence of things that is an alt (that is the sequence) 14:40:44 ... Or you can have a bunch of things separated by ; or | (those are in fact alternatives) 14:40:48 ... Or it can be empty. 14:41:06 John: Can I give an example? You can use () but if you have (()), is it the same thing? 14:41:24 Norm: I think works out to be the same. 14:41:51 Bethan: So parens can contain epsilon or a sequence or an alternative. But you can put () in side to put epsilon. 14:42:10 Steven: I'm not grokking the problem. I think then that this is something we should take to email. 14:42:41 Bethan: I agree, but I think if we don't hash out what the technical possibilities are, before we have that discussion more generally, we're going to spend a lot of tome explaining what is technically impossible. 14:42:53 ... It would be better to work out what would be technically possible. 14:43:38 Norm: I think () or "" could work. What else could work? 14:44:47 Bethan: I think my concern is that an alts must contain at least one alt, but an alt contains 0 or more terms. You can have an empty alt, but you can't have an empty alts. 14:45:08 Steven: You'd make that term++ so that you had to have at least one. 14:45:16 ... Or you could say that an alt is either a term++ or an epsilon. 14:45:27 Bethan: But if epsilon is going to be (), that's an alts. 14:45:41 Steven: So alt would be term++ or epsilon. 14:45:54 Bethan: Right. But what is epsilon? If we say it's () then that's an alts 14:46:06 ... Are we saying that epsilon is an alts? 14:46:22 Bethan: So what is the alt that's inside the ()? 14:46:27 Steven: I think it would only match for an alt? 14:47:11 ACTION: Steven to send the rules he envisions for this solution to the list. 14:47:30 + #334 Move iXML off GitHub? 14:47:30 https://codeberg.org/InvisibleXML/ixml/issues/334 14:47:30 Status: primary movement 14:47:38 Finished. Close the issue? 14:47:39 Accepted. 14:48:01 Topic: Next meeting 14:48:36 Tentatively: 1 September. Steven may or may not have access. 14:49:16 Topic: Any other business 14:49:41 Adjourned 14:49:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:49:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/18-ixml-minutes.html norm