17:02:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:02:47 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/08/13-aria-irc
17:02:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:02:48 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:02:51 <jamesn> Agendabot, find agenda
17:02:51 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:02:52 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/690d057f-db6d-4169-b13f-68d7f1336b59/20260813T130000/
17:02:52 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:02:52 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-08-06+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
17:02:52 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/3vrscu4r
17:02:55 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://tinyurl.com/wpt-a11y
17:02:57 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:02:58 <HaTheo> HaTheo has joined #ARIA
17:03:04 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Define proper AT exposure for aria-colindex when web authors specify this value on a row https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/266
17:03:06 <agendabot> agenda+ -> interactive elements contained in button? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2856
17:03:06 <HaTheo> present+
17:03:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Unclear purpose of aria-valuemin and aria-valuemax when aria-valuetext is used https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1128
17:03:44 <jamesn> Zakim, pick a victim
17:03:44 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HaTheo
17:04:16 <JohnJansen> Present+
17:04:22 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:04:29 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:04:34 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:04:39 <cyns> present+
17:04:45 <Jacques> present+
17:04:58 <jamesn> present+
17:05:04 <lola> present+
17:05:38 <jamesn> chair: spectranaut_
17:05:53 <jamesn> zakim, pick a victim
17:05:53 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose lola
17:06:25 <lola> scribe+
17:06:42 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:07:05 <lola> Zakim, next item
17:07:06 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-08-06+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:06 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:07:10 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:07:30 <Matt_King> present+
17:07:55 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2865
17:08:11 <lola> jamesn: I've reviewed. Added peter and Valerie, this doesn't need anymore
17:08:40 <lola> jamesn: errors aren't in spec, in comments and other places that aren't as important.
17:09:22 <lola> jamesn: the only one i noticed for you is a misspelling of one of the roles for core-aam, it's a computed role so i want to make sure nothing is using it
17:11:49 <spectranaut_> lola: this is from issue 608 in html-aam adding a new row to the spec for link with a click handler on it, in alignment with major browsers: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2863
17:12:04 <lola> hatheo: i can review
17:12:07 <lola> siri: me too
17:12:42 <lola> spectranaut_: we should have an editor of html-aam too
17:12:51 <lola> Zakim, next item
17:12:51 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/3vrscu4r -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:12:51 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:13:38 <lola> spectranaut_: we have issue from CSS working group to discuss overview:clip, should we agenda it?
17:14:17 <jcraig> q+
17:14:26 <lola> johnjansen: we discussed this last week and people were confused by how this work.
17:14:42 <jamesn> q+
17:15:05 <jamesn> Q-
17:15:08 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:15:12 <jamesn> Ack jc
17:15:26 <lola> jcraig: this affects more than just voiceover users, screen reader users can skip over the long text. yes it should remain exposed, it's not an error
17:15:44 <lola> spectranaut_: I think this is something we should rediscussed
17:15:58 <lola> mattking: we should discuss and go through demo
17:16:06 <lola> spectranaut_: we can discuss next week
17:16:18 <lola> johnjansen: james if you have any test, that'd be great
17:16:28 <lola> jcraig: we haven't had anything to test yet
17:17:26 <lola> jamesn: real world usecases would be good. Abstract example doesn't properly show the issue.
17:17:40 <lola> johnjansen: HuffPost is a good example, any long example
17:18:05 <lola> jcraig: can you add that example to the issue to please?
17:18:11 <lola> johnjansen: yup
17:18:15 <lola> Zakim, next issue
17:18:15 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next issue', lola
17:18:19 <lola> Zakim, next item
17:18:19 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://tinyurl.com/wpt-a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:19 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:18:59 <lola> spectranaut_: rego is looking at test type fixtures. I'll look at this
17:19:11 <lola> Zakim, next item
17:19:11 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, lola
17:19:30 <lola> Zakim, close this item
17:19:30 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:19:31 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:19:31 <Zakim> 4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:19:41 <lola> Zakim, next item
17:19:41 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:19:41 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:20:00 <lola> Zakim, close this item
17:20:00 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
17:20:01 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:20:01 <Zakim> 5. -> Define proper AT exposure for aria-colindex when web authors specify this value on a row https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/266 [from agendabot]
17:20:06 <lola> Zakim, next item
17:20:06 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Define proper AT exposure for aria-colindex when web authors specify this value on a row https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/266 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:48 <lola> spectranaut_: this is a request from a firefox developer. If aria-col-index should the browser also expose the value on all cells in the row?
17:21:17 <lola> mattking: that's difficult to understand. how can you have 5 colomns with the same col-index?
17:22:05 <lola> jamesn: I think this may be a copy paste error. it should be row-index right?
17:22:24 <lola> jcraig: it might also be talking about first column header which would then cascade down to each row?
17:22:38 <lola> mattking: is the row-index already not supported?
17:22:49 <lola> spectranaut_: maybe this is a typo?
17:22:57 <lola> jamesn: what does it say in the spec?
17:23:13 <lola> mattking: we actually have an APG example for this
17:24:33 <lola> jamesn: explains specification
17:25:08 <jcraig> s/mattking/matt_king/g
17:25:10 <HaTheo> scribe+
17:25:36 <jcraig> s/matt_king/Matt_King/g
17:25:52 <HaTheo> spectranaut_: They want to just know if aria-col should be indicated. and I think it does
17:26:06 <HaTheo> jamesn: I think it does
17:26:26 <HaTheo> spectranaut_: any agreement from the group?
17:27:24 <HaTheo> Keith: anyone try to just open the example?
17:28:20 <HaTheo> spectranaut_: I don't see aria-rcolindex communicated in computed properties, sounds like this would be a bug on browsers.
17:28:53 <HaTheo> s/aria-rcolindex/aria-colindex
17:29:23 <HaTheo> spectranaut_: sound like there is agreement that it needs to be communicated, right?
17:30:47 <HaTheo> Matt_King: yes, this is one of these situations where if you expose invalid options it would cause problem.
17:32:06 <HaTheo> group agrees
17:33:09 <jamesn> q+
17:33:14 <HaTheo> Matt_King: proposes that we should consider the author fails to provide values then he user agent must not expose it.
17:33:38 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
17:33:53 <HaTheo> jamesn: I would be wary of exposing the author must not do something here.
17:34:16 <HaTheo> jamesn: did we say this was in aria, should it not be in core-aim?
17:35:02 <HaTheo> spectranaut_: my understanding is that aria exposes where implicit items are communicated. e.g. in the case of a default value.
17:35:36 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria
17:36:28 <HaTheo> jamesn: my understanding is platform inconsistencies that should be mapped in core-aam.
17:36:57 <HaTheo> spectranaut_: we should/might have to write a core-aam test to test this.
17:37:54 <HaTheo> jamesn: this seems very similar to we expose things like number of list item calculations, we should think carefully about how we expose this.
17:38:09 <jamesn> https://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/#mapping_additional_position
17:38:50 <HaTheo> jamesn: it seems very similar to this
17:39:26 <HaTheo> spectranaut_: I am ready to move on, but we don't have concrete next steps.
17:39:45 <HaTheo> jamesn: we have a decision which is good progress.
17:40:00 <HaTheo> spectranaut_: added help wanted
17:40:02 <spectranaut_> q?
17:40:07 <HaTheo> Zakim, next item
17:40:07 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> interactive elements contained in button? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2856 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:41:09 <HaTheo> spectranaut_: we talked about this last week, and James Craig, had a open question.
17:41:56 <HaTheo> jamesn: this shows up as an issue mostly when you are using voice over with chrome.
17:42:49 <HaTheo> jcraig: I am familiar with that particular concern. we could consider this but that would be likely shipped as an experimental feature.
17:43:02 <HaTheo> Matt_King: can you clarify what this is?
17:44:27 <HaTheo> jcraig: Buttons have always not exposed children, but we found this changed in chrome and we are wondering if this could cause web compatibility  fallout.
17:44:55 <HaTheo> Matt_King: just to clarify so we are exploring if buttons can have children in the A11y Tree.
17:45:08 <spectranaut_> q?
17:45:35 <HaTheo> jcraig: yes, that is the exploration.
17:46:21 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:46:26 <HaTheo> Matt_King: I've noticed that this(children of button) happens quite frequently in invoice payment, and you have to use NVDA Advanced Navigation.
17:46:49 <HaTheo> jcraig: have you tested this and found it performs better in safari?
17:47:48 <HaTheo> Matt_King: no, I have only looked at this in Windows and found that this requires the usage of Advanced features within NVDA. And with the information exposed in this way there are a very small usage of people who can do that.
17:48:06 <HaTheo> jcraig: can you clarify the case? I am not sure it is the same.
17:49:06 <HaTheo> jcraig: that seems like it is the case actually, can you share a URL?
17:49:25 <HaTheo> Matt_King: one was for a landscaping invoice/payment.
17:50:00 <HaTheo> jcraig: do you remember enough to conjure up a test case here?
17:50:58 <HaTheo> Matt_King: yes, it's also worth noting we noticed a recovery technique where browsers were taking the child elements and making them siblings.
17:52:08 <HaTheo> spectranaut_: it sounds like James you are willing to take this on and explore can I assign this to you?
17:52:09 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:52:44 <HaTheo> spectranaut_: this would just be about thinking about how VoiceOver handles buttons with things inside of it.
17:53:40 <HaTheo> Matt_King: did we catch from last week the cases where the browser expose children as siblings as a recovery technique. if we could do that it seems like it would be very powerful.
17:53:56 <spectranaut_> q?
17:53:57 <Jacques> q+
17:54:15 <keithamus> q+
17:55:23 <spectranaut_> ack Jacques
17:55:34 <spectranaut_> ack  keithamus
17:55:52 <HaTheo> Jacques: I am not worth exploring, but I would like to make sure we make sure the Accessibility tree matches the structure of HTML
17:55:58 <masonf> masonf has joined #aria
17:56:19 <Matt_King> q+
17:56:35 <HaTheo> Keith: I would second what Jacques said, I think there is a lot of potential for synchronization issues and other bugs.
17:56:57 <Jacques> Clarification for the minutes: I am not against exploring, I think the effort might be worth it, just want to take cation.
17:57:11 <HaTheo> Matt_King: I was considering this strictly as a recovery mechanism, and would imagine it should still show issues in the console.
17:57:17 <giacomo-petri> q+
17:57:21 <HaTheo> Matt_King: I like to read the console
17:58:02 <HaTheo> giacomo-petri: can I ask something to James?
17:58:12 <HaTheo> ... I am pretty sure a while ago I tried this.
18:00:58 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:02:09 <HaTheo> s/I am not worth exploring/I think it's worth exploring
18:02:19 <HaTheo> s/I am not worth exploring/I think it's worth exploring/
18:02:59 <HaTheo> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/13-aria-minutes.html HaTheo
20:13:00 <jcraig> zakim, please part
20:13:00 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been HaTheo, JohnJansen, keithamus, giacomo-petri, cyns, Jacques, jamesn, lola, filippo-zorzi, Matt_King
20:13:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
20:13:10 <jcraig> present+
20:13:52 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
20:13:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/08/13-aria-minutes.html jcraig