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16:58:28 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/07/30-aria-irc
16:58:31 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:33 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:58:35 <jamesn> Agendabot, find agenda
16:58:35 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:59:01 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
16:59:31 <Jacques> Jacques has joined #aria
16:59:42 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
16:59:42 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
16:59:42 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
16:59:47 <jamesn> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2026Jul/0028.html
16:59:47 <agendabot> jamesn, sorry, could not get https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2026Jul/0028.html (code 429).
17:00:22 <jamesn> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-07-23+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues)
17:00:22 <jamesn> agenda+[New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/mcbn3nu6)
17:00:22 <jamesn> agenda+[WPT Open PRs](https://tinyurl.com/wpt-a11y)
17:00:22 <jamesn> agenda+[Deep Dive/TPAC](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
17:00:22 <jamesn> agenda+[Charter is going through!](https://daniel-montalvo.github.io/charter-drafts/2027/aria-wg.html)
17:00:23 <jamesn> agenda+[Quick check in on: aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691)
17:00:23 <jamesn> agenda+[Canvas Accessibility -- continuing the convo from last week](https://www.w3.org/2026/07/23-aria-minutes.html#c7c8)
17:00:44 <giacomo-petri3> giacomo-petri3 has joined #aria
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17:01:05 <lola> present+
17:01:06 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:01:22 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:01:32 <front-endian-jane> scribe+
17:01:37 <Jacques> present+
17:01:43 <front-endian-jane> present+
17:02:17 <spectranaut_> scribe?
17:02:39 <HaTheo> present+
17:02:50 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:02:57 <Stefan> present+
17:03:02 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:03:26 <siri> present+
17:03:29 <Daniel> present+
17:05:19 <front-endian-jane> zakim, next item
17:05:19 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New PR Triage](https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-07-23+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:05:19 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:05:46 <front-endian-jane> zakim, close item
17:05:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', front-endian-jane
17:05:57 <front-endian-jane> zakim, close this item
17:05:57 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
17:05:58 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:05:58 <Zakim> 2. [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/mcbn3nu6) [from jamesn]
17:06:05 <front-endian-jane> zakim, next item
17:06:05 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/mcbn3nu6) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:06:05 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:06:19 <jcraig> present+
17:08:03 <spectranaut_> agenda?
17:08:11 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: I'm sure that the WG has discussed the issue discussed in Issue 2836 before, comments added to it already with some context
17:08:37 <front-endian-jane> Tyler Wilcock: I want to talk about this one as I've seen related things for images
17:09:20 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:09:25 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: core-aam issue #266, I can take a look at it
17:09:36 <Matt_King> present+
17:10:17 <front-endian-jane> James Craig: It may be worth ping Aaron Levanthal since he worked on something similar in Chrome.
17:12:00 <front-endian-jane> James Craig: core-aam issue 265, this may end up being an implementation detail but Sarah and I found some inconsistency with what gets translated, but adding a note may be enough and then we can call it an implementation detail
17:12:30 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: Because i18n is pretty interested in ARIA notify now, someone should probably pick this up.
17:12:40 <front-endian-jane> James Craig: You can assign it to me.
17:13:25 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: svg-aam issue 53, any SVG folks on this call who can take a look at it?
17:13:36 <front-endian-jane> Cynthia: I can take a look
17:14:20 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: mathml-aam issue 41, I am going to ask our intern at Igalia if they are interested in taking this on since they are working on MathML
17:15:18 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: html-aam issue 608, any html-aam editors or people who want to work on this change? It should be easy for anyone who wants to start work on AAMs.
17:15:41 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: Asking Rahim if we can assign it to them.
17:15:45 <lola> I can
17:15:53 <lola> Apologies I'm not live atm
17:16:13 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: Thank you lola!
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17:16:21 <cyns> present+
17:16:45 <Daniel> q+
17:16:58 <spectranaut_> ack Daniel
17:17:00 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: ARIA issue 2842, has anyone looked at this?
17:17:07 <front-endian-jane> @Daniel: O
17:17:57 <front-endian-jane> @Daniel: I've looked at this, it is more a screen reader issue rather than something we can do, but I'm open to hearing from others.
17:19:25 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: if others could look at this and comment by next week, that would be goof
17:19:43 <front-endian-jane> s/goof/good/
17:19:54 <front-endian-jane> zakim, next item
17:19:54 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [WPT Open PRs](https://tinyurl.com/wpt-a11y) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:19:54 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:20:09 <front-endian-jane> zakim, close this issue
17:20:09 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close this issue', front-endian-jane
17:20:12 <front-endian-jane> zakim, next item
17:20:12 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, front-endian-jane
17:20:17 <front-endian-jane> zakim, close this item
17:20:17 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:20:18 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:20:18 <Zakim> 4. [Deep Dive/TPAC](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) [from jamesn]
17:20:27 <front-endian-jane> zakim, next item
17:20:27 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Deep Dive/TPAC](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:20:27 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:21:11 <Daniel> https://www.w3.org/register/tpac2026/registrants -> Registrants list
17:21:30 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: Reminder that TPAC is coming up, we also had a deep dive on listboxes this morning which there is a recording of if anyone wants to watch it.
17:21:36 <Daniel> ack me
17:22:00 <front-endian-jane> zakim, next item
17:22:00 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Charter is going through!](https://daniel-montalvo.github.io/charter-drafts/2027/aria-wg.html) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:22:00 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:22:20 <Daniel> q+
17:22:35 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: No comment from anyone about the charter from last week, so it is going through.
17:23:05 <front-endian-jane> @Daniel: We are in the refinement phase, with 6 months ahead people can make comments, but I'll continue to move forward.
17:23:10 <front-endian-jane> zakim, next item
17:23:10 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, front-endian-jane
17:23:16 <spectranaut_> ack Daniel
17:23:18 <front-endian-jane> zakim, next item
17:23:18 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Quick check in on: aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:24:05 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: Sarah is not on the call, but James Craig left a bunch of comments. Any movement since then?/
17:24:21 <front-endian-jane> James Craig: I have not caught up on this yet.
17:24:43 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: Should we ping Jamie on this?
17:25:40 <front-endian-jane> James Craig: He was in the discussion we had, Sarah made the changes discussed, and this PR is the output of that discussion. We are reviewing it.
17:25:45 <front-endian-jane> zakim, next item
17:25:45 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- [Canvas Accessibility -- continuing the convo from last week](https://www.w3.org/2026/07/23-aria-minutes.html#c7c8) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:25:45 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:26:53 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: Continuing conversation from last week, we made some changes and I wanted to review them with the group.
17:27:53 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: To review, we are looking into adding a new attribute "drawable" which can be added to elements inside a canvas tag, which uses can draw using the drawElementImage() function. The question is whether things should be rendered or not by default.
17:29:07 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: I am wondering if we should default to exposing everything to the accessibility tree, including the things not marked as drawable, which would help with things like labels for drawable things, we don't have a way to add things to the accessibility tree that have been removed.
17:29:09 <front-endian-jane> q+
17:29:12 <Jacques> q+
17:29:17 <cyns> q+
17:29:19 <jcraig> q+
17:29:42 <spectranaut_> ack front-endian-jane
17:30:45 <spectranaut_> front-endian-jane: we have aria-hidden to hide things, seems like it should be there by default, if you are doing this you already have a javascript heavy application, adding aria-hidden doesn't seem alike a big lift
17:31:01 <HaTheo> HaTheo has joined #ARIA
17:31:08 <spectranaut_> ack Jacques
17:31:15 <lola> lola has joined #aria
17:31:19 <Matt_King> q+
17:31:53 <jcraig> q+ to speculate if authors will expect CSS and @hidden to "work" inside the unrendered subtree
17:31:54 <front-endian-jane> We also don't have a way to do the reverse of aria-hidden, and just because something is rendered doesn't mean it is visible to the user (it could be blurred, in the background, covered, etc)
17:32:36 <jcraig> q+ to ask whether you've considered (not intending to explode the API — just curious) expanding the API to associate any of the drawing methods (dozens) with an object, and track the changed pixels with that representative element
17:33:40 <front-endian-jane> @Jacques: It could be helpful to have a palette of things that could be rendered. It seems like everything being rendered at once could be a foot gun in that needing to hide things isn't something that would be immediately obvious to people and could result in a lot of excess elements being read to users.
17:34:32 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: There is a similar problem in existing websites of people not hiding things that should be, and yes, this is a real downside, but the upside is we wouldn't miss things.
17:35:29 <giacomo-petri> q+
17:35:34 <spectranaut_> q+ for a basic question about "drawable"
17:36:10 <front-endian-jane> @Jacques: It feels like a pretty big "foot gun" to have things all this exposed. Where in my flow do I think about what should be shown/hidden? It is a problem that exists elsewhere, I am not against this, but this is a serious issue.
17:36:41 <spectranaut_> ack cyns
17:37:24 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: A big reason for this feature is accessibility, and we looked into things like developer warnings, but there was a good suggestion to document all the good accessibility patterns in the spec explicitly
17:37:34 <jcraig> q+ to follow along on cyns @inert idea....
17:37:35 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:37:36 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to speculate if authors will expect CSS and @hidden to "work" inside the unrendered subtree and to ask whether you've considered (not intending to explode the
17:37:36 <Zakim> ... API — just curious) expanding the API to associate any of the drawing methods (dozens) with an object, and track the changed pixels with that representative element and to
17:37:36 <Zakim> ... follow along on cyns @inert idea....
17:37:58 <front-endian-jane> @cyns: I think that confusing chattiness is probably better than accidentally missing content.
17:38:33 <lola> q+ about working closely with documenters
17:38:53 <lola> q+ to talk about working closely with documenters
17:40:14 <front-endian-jane> James Craig: First, I want to make it clear that I like this feature. People will expect CSS to just work, so have y'all looked into what it would take to make that work. One of the main way that people hide stuff from the accessibility tree is via CSS, not ARIA. We've worked out ways to get labels and things associated across hidden content. It's not clear to me that aria-hidden should be used, versus the normal HTML hidden state.
17:40:52 <front-endian-jane> James Craig: I liked what Cynthia said about marking these as inert rather than hidden. That could be a forcing function to force authors to do the right thing.
17:41:50 <front-endian-jane> James Craig: I don't want to blow up the API but have you considered whether you an associate these elements with the different drawing elements to determine what is rendered on screen at the time? That sounds like a challenging math problem to me but maybe it could be solved.
17:42:31 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: Capturing what was actually drawn would be the ideal, and we tried, but it we were unable to make it work due to a lot of technical reasons.
17:43:07 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: The idea of marking thing as inert and then blocking people from drawing things that are inert is an interesting idea. Do you mean things would default to inert?
17:44:16 <front-endian-jane> James Crag: I was thinking we could use it instead of hidden or aria-hidden, block drawing things that are inert, and we could use it as a way to remind web authors to do the right thing.
17:45:07 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: I worry about special casing this. Maybe people want to draw content that isn't clickable. Inert content are rendered currently, so it feels weird to not allow drawing them.
17:45:07 <spectranaut_> q?
17:45:45 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: The great thing about inert is that it allows things to not work for everyone.
17:45:46 <HaTheo> q+ to make room for steven labert
17:45:51 <spectranaut_> ack Matt_King
17:45:56 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: I'll followup separately.
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17:46:19 <jcraig> q?
17:47:43 <front-endian-jane> @Matt_King: I agree with the idea in general, but not about using aria-hidden. the author is responsible for using any aria attribute it is a recipe for disaster. We need a way to make it work for everyone, like with hidden or inert.
17:47:44 <front-endian-jane> q+
17:49:58 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
17:51:06 <front-endian-jane> @giacomo-petri: I agree with Jane and others that the responsibility should be on developers to do this. Everything should be exposed by default and hidden, CSS, or aria-hidden used to hide things. What if there was a way to link drawable to hidden, and force the author to change the author to expose to all users.
17:52:30 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: We started with this idea and had pieces of it, but one place it would fall down is if you only draw part of something (like an image figure relationship and only the image is drawn). By exposing things off as off screen we can let ATs figure out what to present too.
17:52:34 <jcraig> q+ to discuss offscreen further
17:52:38 <spectranaut_> ack spectranaut_
17:52:38 <Zakim> spectranaut_, you wanted to discuss a basic question about "drawable"
17:52:40 <siri> q+
17:52:42 <Matt_King> q?
17:52:56 <front-endian-jane> s/off as off/as off/
17:53:05 <lola> q+ advise against going against current web dev heuristics, i.e. echoing Jane, as TAG would likely raise it as an issue
17:53:13 <lola> q+ to advise against going against current web dev heuristics, i.e. echoing Jane, as TAG would likely raise it as an issue
17:53:24 <Matt_King> q+ to ask about how scrolling works in canvas
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17:53:47 <spectranaut_> ack lola
17:53:47 <Zakim> lola, you wanted to talk about working closely with documenters and to advise against going against current web dev heuristics, i.e. echoing Jane, as TAG would likely raise it as
17:53:49 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: I am concerned that things could become not visible on the canvas, but still drawn. It feels easier to communicate to developers that they have to manage both things on/off screen.
17:53:50 <Zakim> ... an issue
17:56:16 <front-endian-jane> @lola: I wanted to raise that I agree that having this rendered into the accessibility tree by default as the web normally works like that elsewhere, regardless of which direction we go though, this could be confusing for developers. This is an accessibility feature, and more devs don't know about accessibility.
17:56:22 <cyns> q+ to say part of the value of this is that it works like the html that developers are used to, and keeping it that way is important (in the a11y tree by default)
17:56:26 <front-endian-jane> @lola: The key thing here is working with documenters in the docs CG group and elsewhere to make sure that devs are educated about this.
17:56:35 <jcraig> q+ to understand when the css is parsed and rendered on subtree elements before they are drawn into the canvas
17:57:25 <Matt_King> +1
17:57:31 <front-endian-jane> +1
17:57:32 <giacomo-petri> +1 interested
17:57:34 <jcraig> +1
17:57:36 <lola> +1
17:57:44 <front-endian-jane> Philip Rogers: I will add comments from this conversation to the issue.
17:58:12 <front-endian-jane> @spectranaut_: I will make a deep dive for this next week before the WG meeting.
17:58:21 <front-endian-jane> zakim, next item
17:58:21 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, front-endian-jane
17:58:25 <dgrogan> https://github.com/WICG/html-in-canvas/issues/134 comment here in the meantime
17:58:35 <jcraig> ack me
17:58:35 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss offscreen further and to understand when the css is parsed and rendered on subtree elements before they are drawn into the canvas
17:59:10 <front-endian-jane> zakim, end meeting
17:59:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been lola, filippo-zorzi, Jacques, front-endian-jane, HaTheo, Stefan, giacomo-petri, siri, Daniel, jcraig, Matt_King, cyns
17:59:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:59:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/30-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:59:21 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, front-endian-jane; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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