15:54:55 RRSAgent has joined #aria-at 15:54:55 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/07/29-aria-at-irc 15:54:57 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:54:58 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King 15:55:29 MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group 16:01:47 mmoss has joined #aria-at 16:03:52 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria-at 16:05:01 Test 16:06:10 Joe_Humbert has joined #aria-at 16:07:43 cyns has joined #aria-at 16:09:43 lola has joined #aria-at 16:09:48 present+ 16:09:50 scribe+ 16:09:52 agenda: https://github.com/w3c-cg/aria-at/wiki/July-29%2C-2026-Agenda 16:10:15 present+ 16:10:21 present+ 16:10:26 q+ 16:10:28 TOPIC: 1. Review agenda and next meeting dates 16:11:47 Lola: I have a topic to add 16:11:59 Matt will be item 6 16:12:43 Introductions 16:17:46 liz has joined #aria-at 16:18:13 TOPIC: 2 Current interop reporting status 16:18:40 Matt: moved rating radio moved to draft review 16:19:51 Matt: closed issues 1365 and 1246. Did a lot of research. We should treat this the same as radio button with active descendant. NVDA read all radio buttons when interacting. Roving tab index fixes 16:20:44 Matt: that inconsisstent behavior is consistently reproducable with NVDA. Reported excess verbocity to NVAccess 16:20:57 Matt: No other changes 16:21:32 Matt: have 2 other test plans that could soon advance. Minimal data grid we'll look at today. Another blocked by app, which is next on agenda 16:21:56 TOPIC: 3. App outage tomorrow 16:22:19 Matt: servers down 9am pacific tomorrow, for ~1hr 16:22:34 TOPIC: 4. App engineering opportunity 16:23:53 Matt: need help marketing an issue - 1666 tabs test plan has unexpected conflicts error, can't advance. Need help figuring out what is going on 16:24:13 Matt: Chris or Elizabeth, can you look at this? We can give you some mentoring assistance 16:25:31 Chris: I should have some time this coming month. Happy to mentor anyone who wants to help. will help you understand the system! 16:25:49 Yes I am 16:28:53 Matt: need to check with daniel at w3c - some of our repositories have moved to github.com/w3c-cg/aria-at (from w3c/aria-at) which has changed permissions. This issue is still in the old one. Most of us aren't in new one, can't be assigned 16:29:37 (debugging discussion) 16:30:07 TOPIC: 5. Issue 1394: Resolve conflicting JAWS results in Minimal Data Grid test plan 16:30:35 https://github.com/w3c-cg/aria-at/issues/1394 16:31:04 Github: https://github.com/w3c-cg/aria-at/issues/1394 16:31:51 Matt: Murray and Joe were testing, had conflicting results. Joe's doesn't include new column header and name, Murray's does, when you nav letf in the grid 16:32:15 Matt: Might be related to applications mode vs. forms mode 16:32:50 Matt: ran setup on page, put jaws in forms/app mode, and got murray's result 16:33:17 Matt: did set up after ins-z did the other 16:33:40 Joe: difference seems to be automatic forms mode vs. manually toggling PC cursor 16:33:52 Murray: did confim I was in PC cursor mode 16:34:47 Matt: did close read of test instructions. I interpret them to be how Murray did it. do alt-del after setup button 16:34:57 Matt: Joe did you interpret it differently? 16:35:51 Joe: Not in forms mode until you active setup button. Need to do alt-del after. Told me Forms PC cursor not PC cursor. 16:36:24 Matt: we specify which cursor is active. I think Vispero would always consider inconsistencies between forms and apps mode a bug 16:36:45 Murray: should be consistent no matter how you switch mode 16:36:57 Matt: both are wrong in JAWS 2026 16:38:25 Joe: In other tests, if you switch mode, it typically does PC cursor and Virtual Cursor mode. Now it's dropping "forms." is that a different mdoe? 16:38:43 Joe: should I make a screen recording? 16:39:28 Matt: alt-del and ins-z give different answers 16:40:05 Matt: to resolve issue, Joe to change to Murray's results 16:40:25 Matt: even though this passes with JAWS 2025, it's going to fail with JAWS 2026 16:40:55 Matt: will report separately that you can get different results 16:41:40 (debugging discussion) 16:42:13 q- 16:43:45 Matt: there might be an app bug related to saving those results. Conflict has vanished. Had a similar problem with rating test#5. might be an issue with submitting edited results 16:44:48 TOPIC: 6 issue 1396 Create reusable test modules for APG and HTML-AAM 16:45:01 https://github.com/w3c-cg/aria-at/issues/1396 16:46:07 Lola: I've been funded by STF to work on ACD related to web standards, includign this group! 16:46:59 Lola: HTML-AAM tests are pulling in from APG pattern tests. e.g. there are 500 tests for button. this is cumbersome. 16:47:27 Lola: Matt, I think you talked about having reusable compoent tests (liek button tests) 16:48:01 Lola: but now I'm not sure that will work after all. Web Features accessibiltiy can change based on context 16:48:33 Lola: Now I'm thinking of separate set of HTML-AAM tests. We could use the ARIA-AT app. 16:49:03 Matt: we did work on this last august (Chris did). We have 3 sets of test cases 16:49:12 Matt: that's separate from the mappings 16:49:33 Matt: We have have a directory of APG, one for HTML test patterns, and one for ARIA test patterns 16:50:13 Matt: they are separated that way so we can identify the more "atomic" test cases, where there isn't context, or attribute is tested in single very specific context 16:50:43 Matt: one example - aria-required on text field is separate from aria-required on radio button or other form components 16:51:20 Matt: there are tons of patterns in APG where aria-selected is tested. but we could have an atomic test for aria-selected on a list box 16:51:56 Matt: for ACD, you will need to be careful, because you can get different behaviors for different commands (liek we saw in earlier issue today) 16:52:19 Matt: Not sure you want to throw away context-dependent results in ACD? 16:53:01 Lolo: that depends. We want to surface 2 kinds of data. "Raw data" and also updates to docs (e.g. MDN) based on data 16:53:39 Lola: For nuanced ones, MDN already has an accessibility considerateions section that we can add to 16:54:00 Lola: I don't see the HTML tests in the repo 16:54:36 Lola: looking at the code, each APG test has a csv that has refernces to (for example) the button in html-aam 16:54:54 Lola: using that to populate the data for the web feature. Chris is that right 16:55:00 Chris: yes, I think so 16:57:14 Matt: It's simpler. The csv gets turned into JSON. Every assertion can map to one or more specs. If an APG pattern uses a native html button, and the assertion is related to the button role (e.g. named from content), we map those assertions to HTML-AAM, so we can determine if any give AT treats a native button differently 16:57:32 Lola: That makes sense for ARIA-AT, but not necessarily for ACD 16:58:09 Lola: Can we make an HTML-AAM directory that tests individual elements 16:59:00 Matt: we set up the ability, but there aren't any tests. We can make a directory named HTML and it should work 16:59:12 Matt: we did test this. Maybe it was on staging? 16:59:47 (debugging discussion) 17:00:38 Lola: confirming that I'm ok to start writing tests for html-aam? 17:01:00 Matt: yes, we can write tests for html elements and attributes, should go in an html directory in ARIA-AT 17:01:12 Matt: hopefully this will work 17:01:26 Matt: whether we can separate it with our api is a different quesgtion 17:01:41 Lola: haven't looked at it, but probably not 17:02:17 zakim, end meeting 17:02:17 As of this point the attendees have been lola, mmoss, Joe_Humbert 17:02:17 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:02:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/29-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim 17:02:24 I am happy to have been of service, cyns; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 17:02:24 Zakim has left #aria-at