17:00:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/07/16-aria-irc
17:00:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:40 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:00:40 <spectranaut_> agenda?
17:00:43 <jamesn> Agendabot, find agenda
17:00:43 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:43 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/690d057f-db6d-4169-b13f-68d7f1336b59/20260716T130000/
17:00:43 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:00:43 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-07-09+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
17:00:44 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://tinyurl.com/wpt-a11y
17:00:44 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:00:51 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:00:52 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Add explicit language and direction metadata to AriaNotificationOptions https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2828
17:00:53 <Jacques> Jacques has joined #aria
17:00:59 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Translatable Attributes https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2827
17:01:00 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Filtering a listbox with a text field (filterable select) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2841
17:01:02 <Stefan> present+
17:01:03 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Text nodes and Allowed Accessibility Child Roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2836
17:01:06 <agendabot> agenda+ -> aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691
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17:01:51 <HaTheo> present+
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17:02:57 <pkra> present+
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17:04:07 <Daniel> present+
17:04:16 <spectranaut_> zakim, choose a victim
17:04:16 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pkra
17:04:19 <jamesn> Zakim, pick a victim
17:04:19 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Daniel
17:04:22 <katez> present+
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17:04:56 <Matt_King> present+
17:05:05 <Daniel> scribe+
17:05:13 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:05:13 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-07-09+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:13 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
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17:05:21 <pkra> present+
17:05:41 <pkra> agenda?
17:05:51 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Editorial PR for colspan and rowspan already reviewed by Scott. We need one more
17:06:01 <Daniel> pkra: I can take a look
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17:06:13 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:06:22 <Jacques> present+
17:06:29 <Daniel> katez: Scott mentioned thaat having HTML was sufficient
17:06:43 <Daniel> ... I wasn't sure what kind of linking we wanted there
17:07:27 <Daniel> spectranaut_: That's probably fine, no strong convention on this
17:07:47 <Daniel> pkra: Agree with Scott, better to use this for something else, I'll take a look
17:08:38 <Daniel> jcraig: First paragraph has "also see ..." for some of those, which was a deliberate choice
17:08:42 <Daniel> pkra: "See related".
17:09:09 <Daniel> Jcraig: If it's relevant to be put in the related concepts table, it may also be relevant to put on that paragraph
17:09:37 <Daniel> spectranaut_: From Sarah, secondary action
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17:09:50 <Daniel> Sarah: It's on the agenda
17:09:57 <siri> present+
17:10:05 <Daniel> spectranaut_: We have a lot of items, anything to get this unblcked?
17:10:15 <Daniel> Sarah: People who are involved probably are aware laready
17:10:26 <Daniel> Matt_King: I saw this and added my name
17:10:30 <Daniel> Jcraig: Please put me in
17:10:38 <Daniel> Jacques: Me too
17:11:10 <Daniel> Jcraig: It may be worth to breif the group on this
17:11:41 <Daniel> Sarah: Consensus is that focus event buble on the actions but accessibility focus events are not fired, so ATs shouldn't move cursor to the action
17:12:05 <Daniel> ... DOM focus bounces but there are no AT signals
17:12:25 <spectranaut_> q?
17:12:36 <Daniel> Jcraig: Not just accessibility system events, it's any system event. All focus bouncing stays in the browser
17:12:58 <Daniel> s/system event/system events
17:13:05 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Should we add Jammie to this?
17:13:09 <Daniel> Jcraig: And Tyler
17:13:12 <Daniel> Sarah: Good idea
17:13:55 <Daniel> spectranaut_: If he's not in the group he should p robably join
17:13:59 <Daniel> Jcraig: I'll check
17:14:09 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Two PRs against Math-ML. Anyone interested?
17:14:18 <Daniel> spectranaut_: I could take a look
17:14:27 <Daniel> Jcraig: I'll review
17:14:52 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:14:52 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://tinyurl.com/wpt-a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:14:52 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:15:04 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
17:15:14 <sarah> present+
17:15:16 <Daniel> spectranaut_: No new ones other than Theo's, which I need to still take a look at
17:15:44 <Daniel> Theo: Not waiting for much here. I'm still getting a weird testing failure.
17:16:03 <Daniel> spectranaut_: This is a known bug in Firefox
17:16:14 <Daniel> ... We can ask someone to override it
17:16:56 <Daniel> zakim, close this item
17:16:57 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:16:57 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:16:57 <Zakim> 3. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:16:59 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:16:59 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:16:59 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:18:17 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Are you working on the posinset?
17:18:34 <Daniel> Matt_King: I thought you and James were
17:18:48 <Daniel> JamesN: I'll put it back on my todo list. who should be involved?
17:18:53 <Daniel> spectranaut_: There's a list in the issue
17:19:42 <Daniel> Matt_King: I expect to come out of the deep dive with some discreet approaches to solving the problem
17:19:46 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:19:46 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Add explicit language and direction metadata to AriaNotificationOptions https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2828 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:08 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Two issues from i18n HR reviews. Thanks to Sarah and Peter for responding to those
17:20:35 <Daniel> ... I wanted to check in. Sarah, is there something we can do to support you Sarah?
17:20:37 <Daniel> q+
17:21:06 <pkra> q+
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17:21:20 <Daniel> Jaques: ARIA Notify handles it by design, it uses the DOM or the documents language. We didn't want to have it as part of the JAvaScript
17:21:25 <lola> present+
17:21:45 <spectranaut_> ack Daniel
17:22:00 <spectranaut_> ack pkra
17:22:06 <Daniel> Daniel: I'll take this offline with the WG Staff Contact
17:22:33 <Jacques> q+
17:22:41 <Daniel> pkra: Is it a concern for us what happens if someone uses an automated translation service and then the service changes the node language but the script doesn't take that into account?
17:23:04 <Daniel> Sarah: I'd have to check, I don't think these overwrite the language of an empty nodde
17:23:15 <Daniel> pkra: But probably to the document
17:23:19 <Daniel> q+ jcraig
17:23:29 <spectranaut_> ack Jacques
17:23:36 <Daniel> Jacques: Are you saying the translators are editing the lang attribute on the element?
17:23:47 <Daniel> pkra: I was assuming that a translation tool would change both content and language
17:24:01 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:24:01 <jcraig> q?
17:24:02 <Daniel> Jacques: If they change the lang attribute I guess that would be a bit of an issue
17:24:14 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:25:24 <Daniel> Jcraig: The lang attribute is on the html body, the aria-notify string is coming from wherever the javascript takes that, if the restof the page is translated into English then it's not going to be as useful to you to receive this notification in Chinese. Is there a path through the aria-notify implementation that would pick up that process?
17:25:48 <Daniel> ... I think this is something we could include in the AAM to clarify that if you are in autotranslate omde this is an autotranslating string
17:25:52 <pkra> q+
17:26:03 <spectranaut_> ack pkra
17:26:26 <Daniel> pkra: It's not a new problem, this already happened with a live region
17:26:34 <jcraig> q+
17:26:39 <Daniel> ... But it makes it worse now because there's not a way to translate it back later
17:26:40 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:26:56 <jamesn> q+
17:27:01 <Daniel> Jcraig: Good point too. I haven't run tests to see what happens if you run a live region after a translation
17:27:17 <Daniel> pkra: I also don't know how many automatic updates such tools would do
17:27:18 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
17:27:50 <Daniel> JamesN: Worth an experiment to contrast with dialogs and others which would be translated based on event listeners
17:28:22 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Should we need to clarify the changes we are proposing?
17:28:45 <Daniel> Jcraig: Regardless of the result of Sarah's tests, I think we need an issue in Core-AAM
17:29:15 <Daniel> ... There should be an aria-notify section in core-aam
17:29:26 <Daniel> Jacques: How do we know if we are in "translation mode"?
17:29:35 <spectranaut_> q+
17:29:50 <Daniel> Jcraig: I am only talking about browsers built-in functions.
17:30:32 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:30:32 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Daniel
17:30:37 <spectranaut_> ack spectranaut_
17:30:39 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:30:39 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Translatable Attributes https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2827 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:31:12 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Peter, you said you'd work on a draft for this
17:31:30 <Daniel> pkra: I did say that, but I also said that what was requested wouldn't really work
17:32:31 <Daniel> ... What they suggest is that an element's language and directionality is different than it's accname and description, which is weird to me. And also the suggestion around using aria-describedby or details is also weird. I think there's a misunderstanding, and would probably cause a WCAG failure
17:32:33 <front-endian-jane> front-endian-jane has joined #aria
17:32:39 <front-endian-jane> present+
17:33:05 <Daniel> ... I do see a note suggesting aria-labelledby for translations, but nothing else really
17:33:10 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Do you waant to make that note?
17:33:18 <spectranaut_> q?
17:33:24 <Daniel> pkra: I'll make a small note ,but I am not sure if it will be sufficient
17:34:40 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:34:40 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Filtering a listbox with a text field (filterable select) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2841 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:35:28 <Daniel> JohnJansen: I am working on an HTML filterable select element
17:35:44 <HaTheo> people tend to call this wordwheeling lists if that's helpful.
17:35:45 <spectranaut_> s/JohnJansen/jarhar/
17:35:52 <Daniel> ... I wonder what's the best way to represent this iwth accessibility roles
17:36:35 <Daniel> ... Based on previous conversations it seems that the button that opens the picker should be a button if it's always the same or a combo box if it contains values
17:36:46 <Daniel> ... the picker should be @@@
17:37:07 <Daniel> ... And the text field inside should be a text field that controls the list box
17:37:12 <Matt_King> q+
17:37:20 <sarah> q+
17:37:36 <Daniel> ... Curious if anyone has feedback
17:37:50 <front-endian-jane> q+
17:38:09 <spectranaut_> ack Matt_King
17:38:21 <Daniel> Matt_King: aGree with Scott about the github example not being a combo box
17:38:39 <Daniel> ... This highlights the combo box constraints
17:39:14 <Daniel> ... Combo box are single-select, but I don't see anything in the issue that says if it's always single-select or always multi-select
17:39:32 <Daniel> JohnJansen: It's designed to be multi-select
17:39:42 <Daniel> Matt_King: We'd have to adjust accordingly
17:39:46 <spectranaut_> s/JohnJansen/jarhar/
17:40:17 <spectranaut_> s/multi-select/multi-select or  single select/
17:40:23 <Daniel> Sarah: If you want to build this with existing ARIA roles and patterns you could
17:40:31 <spectranaut_> q?
17:40:35 <Daniel> ... You could use menu and menuitem check box for the pop ups
17:40:53 <Matt_King> q+
17:41:00 <spectranaut_> ack sarah
17:41:14 <Daniel> ... That works well for multi-selects
17:41:44 <Daniel> ... Keeping the filter as a text box and then putting activedescentand pointing to the list items
17:41:52 <Daniel> ... All of this is not quite per spec, but it works
17:42:21 <Daniel> jarhar: I am taking notes on the feedback issue
17:42:30 <Daniel> Sarah: We've used it some times and got great feedback
17:42:47 <Daniel> jarhar: Sounds something worth looking into
17:42:53 <spectranaut_> ack front-endian-jane
17:43:48 <Daniel> Jane: We were looking at reopening the discussion of issues on the ARIA spec that Sarah just highlighted because we've encountered some similar issues with thiss now that this is turning into a pretty common pattern on the web
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17:44:17 <Daniel> ... In addition to supporting muitl-select and single-select, is the search box only a search box or it can also be an input field?
17:44:19 <benbeaudry> present+
17:44:45 <Daniel> ... Common example would be a tagging interface. TExt box at the top as you are typing a tag that shows the matching values but also allows to create a new tag
17:44:57 <Daniel> s/TExt/Text/
17:45:10 <Daniel> jarhar: Dynamic loading of options is an important use case
17:46:00 <Daniel> ... Adding options based on what you typed, I haven't look in detail at examples where you would want to add something new
17:46:33 <Daniel> Jane: Some patterns to be aware. If you are typing anything the top or bottom item is Add" plus the text you wrote. You select it as another option
17:46:53 <Daniel> ... The other thing we've seen is a separate button to add what you just typed
17:47:18 <Daniel> ... It is prefferrable to put the add option at the top, especially when there are many items on the list
17:47:34 <spectranaut_> q?
17:47:36 <spectranaut_> ack Matt_King
17:47:40 <Daniel> ... Question for the group is if we want to open a separte issue that helps improving the ARIA spec based on common experience
17:48:05 <Daniel> what Matt_King: I'd like to learn the benefits of using menus over multi-select list boxes are
17:48:32 <Daniel> ... We should figure out what is stopping them from working
17:49:13 <spectranaut_> agenda?
17:49:53 <Daniel> ... The GitHub example is cumbersome to use with the keyboard, we could go through some of this on the deep dive
17:50:14 <Daniel> ... Could we take an example ane enumerate the problems? And where we should be doing it?
17:50:20 <Daniel> jarhar: Please do in this very issue
17:51:06 <Daniel> spectranaut_: We should wait for scheduling the deep dive until Matt gets the feedback and jarhar processes feedback
17:51:36 <Daniel> ... We use to have these one hour before this meeting, or we could schedule them later for Jamie to be able to participate
17:51:42 <Daniel> ... What about in two weeks?
17:52:22 <Daniel> Keith: I'll be out
17:52:24 <HaTheo> I am down with any time, having owned a number of these controls I have opinions and research. Though I feel like it might echo others opinions.
17:52:30 <Daniel> Jane: I also won't be available
17:52:40 <Daniel> Matt_King: No problem on my end
17:52:47 <Daniel> spectranaut_: I'll schedule it after this meeting
17:53:30 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:53:30 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> Text nodes and Allowed Accessibility Child Roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2836 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:54:18 <Daniel> giacomo-petri: We are allowing the author to include empty structures or generric interveening, but we are not defining the rules for text.
17:54:34 <Daniel> ... Borwsers are defining their own
17:55:13 <front-endian-jane> q+
17:55:17 <Daniel> ... To me the example I provided is not allowed. Should weclarify that aspect that text nodes are somehow not allowed in those contexts?
17:55:27 <spectranaut_> ack front-endian-jane
17:55:29 <spectranaut_> q+
17:56:12 <Daniel> Jane: IF we define that in the spec, does it mean that if an author renders them the information wouldn't be presented by AT? I think this could potentially create a worse user experience, that sighted users are going to see that but not screen reader users
17:56:27 <Daniel> spectranaut_: This is about users must, it's an author issue
17:56:34 <Daniel> JAnes: Only validators?
17:56:37 <Daniel> giacomo-petri: Yes
17:56:54 <Daniel> Jane: Yes, then it does make sense, having validators raise it would be good
17:57:15 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Sounds like it's a but, sounds to me like it should be surface
17:57:23 <pkra> q+
17:57:29 <Daniel> ... Maybe we should start talking about plain text
17:57:30 <spectranaut_> ack spectranaut_
17:57:56 <Daniel> pkra: If I go by the example, we have allowed accessibility child roles, which tell waht is permisible
17:58:01 <giacomo-petri> q+
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17:58:55 <Matt_King> q+
17:59:12 <Daniel> ... Then we talk about children of these elements as objects in the accessibility tree
17:59:24 <spectranaut_> ack pkra
17:59:27 <Daniel> JAnes: If the text node is not allowed would it also not be allowed in situations where it should be?
17:59:39 <Daniel> pkra: There are situations where we don't limit the accessibility children
17:59:58 <Daniel> giacomo-petri: My problem is with the word "role", which is note defined
18:00:15 <Daniel> ... It could be ambiguous for implementers of testing tools
18:00:41 <Daniel> Matt_King: Is the issue that the spec doesn't do a good job of saying that the author made a mistake?
18:00:44 <Daniel> giacomo-petri: Yes
18:01:04 <Daniel> Matt_King: It's obvious to me this example is a mistake, but you're saying it wouldn't be so obvious by just reading the spec
18:01:13 <Daniel> ... It's just a wording issue, what children means here
18:01:44 <Daniel> pkra: The simplest one wouldd be to talks about accessibility children
18:01:50 <Daniel> s/wouldd/would/
18:02:07 <Daniel> Jane: There should be a note
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18:02:11 <Daniel> rrsagent ,draft minutes
18:03:32 <Daniel> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/16-aria-minutes.html Daniel
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