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12:53:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:53:33 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:53:37 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
12:53:45 <wendyreid> date: 2026-07-09
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12:59:43 <kimberg> present+
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13:02:17 <gautierchomel_> scribe+ gautierchomel_
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13:02:48 <wendyreid> Topic: Sync Media and Process Discussion
13:02:50 <DaleRogers> present+
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13:04:37 <AvneeshSingh> Accessible sync media: https://www.w3.org/community/accessible-syncmedia-pub/
13:04:52 <gautierchomel_> wendyreid: some of us met to discuss this topic. we suggest to pause rechartering and retake that discussion by q4 when we'll better know what we want to put in this charter.
13:05:10 <mgarrish> present+
13:05:28 <gautierchomel_> wendyreid: a cg for sync media have been created to get more feedback.
13:05:51 <AvneeshSingh> First meeting of sync media to give idea of discussions: https://w3c-cg.github.io/accessible-syncmedia-pub/minutes/2026-06-26.html#minutes
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13:06:43 <Hadrien> present+
13:06:47 <Makoto> present+
13:06:53 <GeorgeK> q+
13:06:57 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:07:05 <gautierchomel_> wendyreid: one of open questions is how to collect wide feedback. Maybe a survey like tghe html one which worked well.
13:08:02 <Makoto> +1
13:08:32 <Makoto> FYI: CBT people appear to provide dynamic TTS (with Karaoke) without special SMIL-like markup.
13:08:38 <gautierchomel_> GeorgeK: we recognise that a lot of techs have evolved since MO was introduced in EPUB. SYncinc and generating are part of those. Because of that the use cases have evolved and doing a new use cases analysis is important for the discussion.
13:08:40 <Hadrien> q+
13:08:43 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:08:49 <sueneu> s/tghe/the
13:09:38 <Makoto> q+
13:09:40 <sueneu> s/SYncinc/Syncing
13:09:44 <gautierchomel_> Hadrien: looking at issues tagged MO, i don't think thta there is one that would break backward compatibility. The problem now is that we ara missing interoperability.
13:09:45 <wendyreid> ack Makoto
13:10:36 <Makoto> Computer-based testing
13:10:40 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:10:44 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:10:47 <gautierchomel_> Makoto: Daisy people in Japan heavily use MO because TTS is not sufficient. The production process is painfull, we have only one solution and it's a challenge to syncronise.
13:11:21 <Hadrien> q+
13:11:25 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:11:37 <gautierchomel_> AvneeshSingh: Hiroshi is representing Daisy Japan in the sync media cg. We have faith in capturing japanese usecases.
13:12:40 <gautierchomel_> Hadrien: MO, readaloud, sync, those are different features, sometimes mixed in people mind. It's important to help clear understanding.
13:12:50 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:15:32 <gautierchomel_> Hadrien: at EDRLab, we are building Readium speech to ease TTS cross apps. We are planning a speech playground to  test and explore how the DOM should be processed and rendered. There are quite a few steps, how to extract semantics, how to represent the information and then what are user powers (settings). A lot of this done at production time makes MO stronger today. By those experiments we hope to make the RS rendering more efficient.
13:15:47 <sueneu> q+
13:15:54 <GeorgeK> q+
13:15:58 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:16:07 <gautierchomel_> Hadrien: still, TTS is in my mind a different discussion than MO.
13:16:51 <gautierchomel_> AvneeshSingh: MO is an authoring format, event if it can rely on TTS generated speech.
13:17:19 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:17:56 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:18:01 <gautierchomel_> AvneeshSingh: we have started to work on user expectations of what a RS generating speech experience. To explore what is expected and procide some guidance.
13:18:10 <wendyreid> q+
13:20:24 <gautierchomel_> GeorgeK: at epubtest.org we've been testing readaloud for years. But pretty basic, we don't go in sofisticated thigs. I agree a lot of work need to be done to improve the readaloud expereince. Also related to position and syncronisation at diferent levels (letters, words, etc.) it's a tiroirs topics, what semantics, what language changing, etc.
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13:20:53 <sueneu> s/sofisticated thigs/sophisticated things/
13:20:54 <Hadrien> Right now, Readium Speech handles voice selection and audio playback: https://readium.org/speech/demo/
13:21:44 <GeorgeK> q+
13:21:57 <gautierchomel_> Hadrien: I started to work on this some years ago, it's now entirely triggered by EDRLab. to help the implementation in our reading tools.``
13:22:22 <gautierchomel_> s/``//
13:22:33 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:23:01 <Hadrien> The playground would be a much more exhaustive version of something like this: https://github.com/readium/guided-navigation/tree/main/examples/read-aloud#pagebreaks
13:23:21 <Makoto> How about video containing sign language?
13:23:26 <Hadrien> q+
13:23:47 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:23:49 <gautierchomel_> GeorgeK: In the sync media group, we have both use cases in mind, authored and reading system on the fly production.
13:24:47 <gautierchomel_> wendyreid: this is a challenge, anything TTS is of interest for our group but we are not the only group impacted, so need a lot of coordination.
13:25:04 <gautierchomel_> wendyreid: a lot of spec are out of date, but ownership is not defined
13:25:17 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:26:07 <gautierchomel_> GeorgeK: we don't want to write an ebook specification that would be used by airport anouncements. We can learn from other use cases but our topic is ebooks. and that's already a big topic.
13:26:08 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:27:12 <gautierchomel_> Hadrien: webspeech api is accepted responsability of audio WG.
13:28:12 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:28:13 <gautierchomel_> Hadrien: I think we should do nothing at this point regarding TTS, contratly to MO where there is a need because it does not work.
13:28:18 <sueneu> +1 Hadrien
13:30:17 <gautierchomel_> AvneeshSingh: the plan os this accessible sync media cg is to be permanent in time, we think there will be need for long term work. First priority is EPUB 3.5, but there will be future needs. It's our vision.
13:30:35 <wendyreid> Topic: Understanding EPUB A11y - https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub34/a11y-understand/
13:31:29 <Makoto> +q
13:31:43 <wendyreid> ack Makoto
13:31:48 <mgarrish> q+
13:33:55 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:33:59 <wendyreid> q+
13:34:09 <gautierchomel_> Makoto: great work, one concern regarding the title which I think is to wide and does not represnet the content. It looks more important than other documents while it is not, it is different. This one focus on relation between wcag and epub, or how to interpret wcag for EPUB. I would like to make sur the title represent exactly the content.
13:34:28 <Makoto> +q
13:34:29 <sueneu> s/represnet/represent
13:34:32 <shiestyle> q+
13:35:07 <duga> q+
13:36:05 <sueneu> s/sur/sure/
13:36:12 <sueneu> s/represnet/represent/
13:36:31 <gautierchomel_> mgarrish: we previously had understanding sections in each documents, this one groups all understandings at the same place.  It's 50/50 existing texts and new contents.  This is not a finale note, it's a draft to get more feedbacks, more people involved.
13:38:22 <gautierchomel_> ... it's a step in continuing developing the document.
13:38:23 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:38:57 <sueneu> q+
13:39:32 <gautierchomel_> q+
13:40:01 <gautierchomel_> wendyreid: I agree with both concerns.  We may add clear mention we are looking for feddback.
13:40:24 <sueneu> +1 wendyreid putting requests for feedback in draft document
13:41:08 <gautierchomel_> wendyreid: understanding is a known word in wcag world.
13:41:09 <wendyreid> ack Makoto
13:41:45 <gautierchomel_> Makoto: Understanding wcag is not a note or anything, just a webpage. Also it covers everything in wcag.
13:42:08 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:43:23 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:43:37 <gautierchomel_> shiestyle: wg and cg can produce notes, that may lead to misunderstandings.
13:45:56 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:46:01 <gautierchomel_> duga: it's in github, there's been a lot of back and forth. This is a minor step to publish it as a draft. We probably need it published as a draft, title might change and that may come with confusion, but that's part of the process.
13:46:55 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel_
13:46:58 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:47:02 <gautierchomel_> sueneu: as a pruducer what document should I check, how many documents should I check? I agree we should publish and get feedback.
13:47:42 <Makoto> +q
13:47:47 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: Just to make sure, once published as a draft, any issue related to the document will appear in the document as a note, in the case of Makoto's issue it's about the title, would there be a block there or am I misunderstanding?
13:48:42 <wendyreid> [discussion of editorial practice]
13:48:54 <gautierchomel_> wendyreid: those issue blocks are human authored, not automatised.
13:49:29 <DaleRogers> q+
13:49:43 <wendyreid> ack Makoto
13:50:43 <mgarrish> q+
13:50:47 <gautierchomel_> Makoto: I suggest two changing, one is a mention about relation between this document and the ones related to metadata. the second change i suggest is a title modification to avoid confusion with wcag understanding of "understanding".
13:50:50 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:51:30 <mgarrish> q-
13:51:53 <mgarrish> q+
13:51:54 <gautierchomel_> Dale: i am not sure who the audience of this document is
13:51:57 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:52:38 <Makoto> I don't agree
13:52:52 <gautierchomel_> mgarrish: this isn't a technical document, this is a general understanding document, higher level for people not in technics.
13:53:04 <Makoto> Abstract
13:53:04 <Makoto> The Understanding EPUB Accessibility 1.2 guide provides information on how to evaluate the accessible content conformance requirements of EPUB Accessibility 1.2 [epub-a11y-12] against reflowable EPUB publications.
13:53:25 <gautierchomel_> q+
13:55:23 <GeorgeK> q+
13:55:26 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel_
13:55:31 <sueneu> +1 wendyreid about the number and discoverability of documents
13:56:03 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: I would like to see Makoto's proposals, having issues to discuss, we should review the proposals
13:56:07 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:57:07 <gautierchomel_> GeorgeK: I need this ressource on my activities, as soon as i get it, i will use it.
13:58:12 <gautierchomel_> wendyreid: we need a map of documents anyway. We have a lot.
13:58:13 <Hadrien> +1 we need an index at least for all of our documents
13:59:25 <gautierchomel_> AvneeshSingh: I've seen such an index years ago, but it's not very easy to use either.
13:59:27 <DaleRogers> +1 for an index. This is one I know. https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/pm/publications/
13:59:36 <sueneu> q+
13:59:40 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:59:52 <mgarrish> https://www.w3.org/TR/?filter-tr-name=&tags%5B%5D=dpub
14:00:51 <Makoto> Makoto has left #pmwg
14:02:02 <shiestyle> zakim, end the meeting
14:02:02 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been kimberg, wendyreid, MasakazuKitahara, toshiakikoike, AvneeshSingh, shiestyle, duga, GeorgeK, gautierchomel_, sueneu, DaleRogers, rdeltour,
14:02:05 <Zakim> ... mgarrish, Hadrien, Makoto
14:02:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
14:02:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/09-pmwg-minutes.html Zakim
14:02:13 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, shiestyle; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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