12:31:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rqtf
12:31:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/07/08-rqtf-irc
12:31:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:31:40 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jasonjgw
12:31:40 <jasonjgw> meeting: RQTF meeting
12:32:03 <jasonjgw> chair: jasonjgw
12:32:08 <jasonjgw> present+
12:32:12 <jasonjgw> scribe+
12:32:16 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Accessibility of Machine Learning and Generative AI draft.
12:32:16 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Media accessibility, coordination of work.
12:32:16 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Game accessibility.
12:32:16 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Miscellaneous topics.
12:49:12 <scott_h> scott_h has joined #rqtf
12:53:59 <scott_h> presen
12:55:56 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #rqtf
12:59:20 <JPaton> JPaton has joined #rqtf
12:59:41 <JPaton> present+ John_Paton
13:02:11 <scott_h> scribe+
13:02:38 <janina> janina has joined #rqtf
13:02:51 <janina> present+
13:03:32 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
13:03:32 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Accessibility of Machine Learning and Generative AI draft. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:03:58 <Joshue108> Joshue108 has joined #rqtf
13:04:40 <Joshue108> Zakim, take up item 1
13:04:40 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Accessibility of Machine Learning and Generative AI draft. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:04:45 <janina> zakim, who's here?
13:04:45 <Zakim> Present: jasonjgw, John_Paton, janina
13:04:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see Joshue108, janina, JPaton, jasonjgw, scott_h, RRSAgent, Zakim, alastairc, Rachael, Roy_Ruoxi
13:05:16 <Joshue108> present+
13:05:24 <Joshue108> scribe+ Joshue108
13:05:33 <janina> zakim, who's here?
13:05:33 <Zakim> Present: jasonjgw, John_Paton, janina, Joshue
13:05:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see Joshue108, janina, JPaton, jasonjgw, scott_h, RRSAgent, Zakim, alastairc, Rachael, Roy_Ruoxi
13:05:59 <Joshue108> JW:  There are two tracks - the publications under dev and then the issues Janina is looking at
13:06:17 <Joshue108> There is also the publication itself and WebMPC
13:06:28 <Joshue108> There were issues raised and things that need to happen there.
13:06:34 <Joshue108> Lets start with Janinas list
13:06:58 <matatk> matatk has joined #rqtf
13:07:01 <matatk> present+
13:08:24 <Joshue108> JS: This has ended up being helpful. I've got a summary of the conversations about our paper. Going back to Jan.
13:08:51 <Joshue108> The end result is what I've posted and names the issues we identified
13:09:25 <Joshue108> They are chronological - there are 43 points.
13:09:37 <Joshue108> Some are obvious and would be good as a TOC
13:10:07 <Joshue108> Some may not be appropriate e.g. some stuff on overlays
13:10:32 <Joshue108> An argument is that you cant avoid talking about post source
13:10:36 <Joshue108> q?
13:10:44 <Joshue108> q+ to ask what is post source?
13:11:13 <Joshue108> There are conversations around how we define and describe accessibility
13:11:20 <Joshue108> I have some questions - so we could go through them?
13:11:41 <Joshue108> JW: Responding to detail would be good on the list.
13:12:12 <Joshue108> JOC: Have we a URI?
13:13:44 <janina> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rqtf/2026Jul/0005.html
13:14:19 <Joshue108> JS: I will categorise these
13:14:35 <Joshue108> 9,10,11 could be things we may need to get our head around
13:14:52 <Joshue108> 16 -19 we need to think about more
13:14:59 <Joshue108> 21,22 are out of scope
13:15:13 <Joshue108> 9. Defining the scope of the work is difficult: whether to address neural-network machine learning narrowly or "AI" broadly, and how to signal which claims apply to which kind of system.
13:15:17 <Joshue108> 10. Rule-based, deterministic AI and neural-network machine learning behave very differently, and the variable, hard-to-predict output of the latter is what matters most for disability.
13:15:17 <Joshue108> 11. Discussion of AI risks getting lost in background and definitions rather than telling users what the technology does for them and how it affects them.
13:15:32 <Joshue108> 16. If users interact with the web only through agents, source websites may shrink to API-only endpoints, eroding the large accessible surface of today's web.
13:15:34 <Joshue108> 17. Control over branding and presentation shifts into a negotiation between content providers and agent providers rather than remaining with the user.
13:15:34 <Joshue108> 18. It is unclear what is actually being licensed, in copyright and intellectual-property terms, when agents mediate and repackage content.
13:15:35 <Joshue108> 19. In an agent-mediated web, remediation becomes the preferred accessibility strategy, with human intervention as a costly and limited fallback.
13:15:49 <Joshue108> 21. The large data centers behind AI carry significant environmental and economic costs.
13:16:00 <Joshue108> 42. Access to the benefits of AI is not equitably distributed.
13:16:08 <Joshue108> JS: 17 I think is just wrong
13:16:33 <Joshue108> SH: Are you happy if we just comment on the list?
13:16:36 <Joshue108> JS: Please do
13:17:01 <Joshue108> JW: Lets do that - best on list
13:17:31 <Joshue108> JW: Some of the Out of Scope issues arise from the editors draft
13:18:08 <Joshue108> JS: Great, we have made some progress.
13:19:11 <scott_h> secodn point - webMCP proposal
13:19:31 <janina> scribe+
13:19:44 <janina> topic: WebMCP Proposal (Continued)
13:20:25 <scott_h> Matthew: APA has a tracking issue for this
13:20:26 <janina> zakim, who's here?
13:20:26 <Zakim> Present: jasonjgw, John_Paton, janina, Joshue, matatk
13:20:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see matatk, Joshue108, janina, JPaton, jasonjgw, scott_h, RRSAgent, Zakim, alastairc, Rachael, Roy_Ruoxi
13:20:48 <scott_h> accessibility tree should be vehicle?
13:21:01 <scott_h> present+
13:21:20 <Joshue108> Scribe+
13:21:37 <Joshue108> scribe: Joshue108
13:21:48 <Joshue108> JW: There are updates to that thread
13:21:57 <matatk> APA tracking issue: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-tracking/issues/317
13:22:11 <Joshue108> MA: I'll paste into the tracking issue
13:22:30 <Joshue108> <gives overview of tracking process>
13:23:08 <Joshue108> MA: The a11y is the one I've linked to comment from the Web Machine Learning repo
13:23:32 <Joshue108> I've drafted a potential comment to this question - I will mention it in the APA call and ping RQTF
13:23:59 <Joshue108> It needs some editing - but captures what we are saying - captures comments from Leonie and James C
13:24:19 <Joshue108> There are things there to make accomodations - but the A11y tree may not be the right place to do this
13:24:32 <Joshue108> Leonie and James speak to this
13:24:58 <Joshue108> Note, even if this is right place - the a11y tree - this will break existing interoperability
13:25:16 <Joshue108> They could create a parallel a11y tree - that wont break existing interactions
13:25:27 <Joshue108> q?
13:25:30 <Joshue108> q-
13:26:09 <Joshue108> JS: Just to suggest for the minutes - as an experiment that makes sense - is there any reason not to keep parallel structures in the future?
13:26:19 <Joshue108> MA: There is no suggestion that they will do this.
13:26:26 <Joshue108> The question is, is it related?
13:26:48 <Joshue108> I've not seen all comments - but Leonie and James thing this is different kind of problem.
13:27:07 <Joshue108> MA: I'd like to see more semantics available but this WebMPC is more abstract
13:27:24 <Joshue108> Doesn't follow the same rules - separate problem.
13:27:46 <Joshue108> They likely have two distinct solutions as they are two different problems.
13:28:06 <Joshue108> JW: This MPC info is independent of the UI
13:28:25 <Joshue108> JS: We do like declared semantics - not likely to change
13:28:32 <Joshue108> JW: Thats right.
13:29:10 <Joshue108> There is a question around how LLM will use it when it parses declares semantics on the web, potentially powerful with agentic
13:30:02 <Joshue108> JW: Semantics are of course useful - I agree with Matthew
13:30:05 <Joshue108> q?
13:30:22 <Joshue108> JS: What is the expected APA path forward?
13:30:49 <stacey> stacey has joined #rqtf
13:30:53 <Joshue108> MA: Thank you for that Janina - your point last week. I will point to the fact we discussed it in RQTF
13:30:54 <stacey> present+
13:32:03 <Joshue108> MA: The proposal is should be MPC thing use the a11y tree - we think no. Cloning may not help but a slightly more deterministic proposal may be better.
13:32:19 <Joshue108> We will talk in APA today and come up with something end of the week
13:32:40 <Joshue108> Will ping RQTF later et
13:33:02 <Joshue108> MA: Hearing no objections will ship it shortly after
13:34:10 <Joshue108> <DIscuss the logistics>
13:34:37 <matatk> Web and AI IG meeting (APA & RQTF are invited): https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c955602b-2544-4eff-abaf-aab826708831/20260714T160000/
13:34:41 <matatk> Next Tuesday
13:34:55 <matatk> (or otherwise!)
13:37:00 <Joshue108> Zakim, take up next
13:37:00 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Media accessibility, coordination of work. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:37:33 <Joshue108> JS: I think this is under control. We had to cut short the convo last week
13:37:44 <Joshue108> JW: Opening this up for comments
13:37:58 <Joshue108> Zakim, take up next
13:37:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, Joshue108
13:38:02 <Joshue108> Zakim, take up next
13:38:02 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Game accessibility. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:38:57 <Joshue108> JW: We are narrowing scope on an RQTF contribution
13:39:23 <Joshue108> JW: We didn't complete convo last time, John where are we at?
13:40:01 <Joshue108> JP: The question is how to identify what is necessary for a game to be accessible
13:40:24 <Joshue108> It is too much in some situations - can it be nailed down and separate a problem from an a11y issue?
13:40:28 <Joshue108> Needs debate and discussion
13:40:43 <Joshue108> This is key need for a new document
13:41:09 <Joshue108> See if we can make sense of it, and then publish this along side existing a11y guideance
13:41:17 <Joshue108> Thoughts?
13:41:34 <Joshue108> SH: The *AUR documents look at best practice in terms of a11y
13:41:59 <Joshue108> Doesn't make a call if people should do this or that but states the use cases and things you can do
13:42:10 <Joshue108> As well as being clear about what needs to be addressed
13:42:23 <Joshue108> Your doc is also great
13:42:45 <Joshue108> Getting clear guideance on what best practice is is great - but may not need to be prescriptiv
13:42:51 <matatk> q+
13:43:03 <Joshue108> s/prescriptiv/proscriptive
13:43:16 <Joshue108> JS: We are jumping a little on this.
13:43:56 <Joshue108> JS: This will give us tools for other a11y convos - which I'm looking forward to
13:45:12 <Joshue108> JS: For responsive visual games - the speed of sound is not the same as light, so there are challenges but for people with low vision we should be able to push this
13:46:06 <Joshue108> JP: I question if you cannot transmit as much information via audio
13:46:15 <Joshue108> This convo may bring this out
13:46:31 <Joshue108> Challenges can be abstracted to support multiple modalities
13:46:47 <Joshue108> q?
13:46:55 <Joshue108> ack ma
13:47:30 <Joshue108> MA: This is interesting
13:47:47 <Joshue108> Focusing on a gap analysis etc would be a good start - where would they be of use?
13:47:55 <Joshue108> What frictions are necessary?
13:48:48 <Joshue108> I've seen older games doing interesting in universe AT
13:49:28 <Joshue108> If everyone an use it its usability, if only some can use it, its accessibility
13:49:42 <Joshue108> <Give example>
13:50:27 <Joshue108> Claude dev has a questy aspect to it - fun
13:50:47 <Joshue108> Core game mechanics may have wiggle room to present a fun challenge
13:51:03 <Joshue108> Story telling has traditional a11y considerations
13:51:29 <Joshue108> In my experience, there is a trade off between immersive things and speed
13:52:10 <Joshue108> There can be trade offs in games operating on a timescale etc
13:53:56 <Joshue108> MA: Could we mention Authoring tool a11y here? In the area of games?
13:54:23 <Joshue108> I dont think there is a successfull accessible 3D authoring environment
13:54:55 <Joshue108> <Josh still plays Quake *grin>
13:55:25 <Joshue108> MA: High level descriptions could be written
13:56:37 <Joshue108> MA: < Mentions AI generative environment and gaming tool that isn't accessible>
13:57:04 <Joshue108> q?
13:57:22 <Joshue108> JW: We will miss Matthew, Janina and Josh next week
13:57:35 <Joshue108> SH: Lets postpone and meet in two weeks
13:58:00 <Joshue108> JP: I wont be there
13:58:19 <Joshue108> JS: Lets leave gaming to the 4th
13:58:51 <Joshue108> Zakim, draft minutes
13:58:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', Joshue108
13:59:00 <Joshue108> Zakim, make minutes
13:59:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', Joshue108
13:59:23 <jasonjgw> zakim, end meeting
13:59:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jasonjgw, John_Paton, janina, Joshue, matatk, scott_h, stacey
13:59:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:59:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/08-rqtf-minutes.html Zakim
13:59:35 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jasonjgw; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
13:59:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rqtf
14:00:00 <matatk> matatk has left #rqtf
14:02:26 <janina> janina has left #rqtf