15:56:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
15:56:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/07/08-aria-apg-irc
15:56:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:56:21 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
15:56:48 <Matt_King> agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/July-8%2C-2026-Agenda
15:56:51 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:56:51 <agendabot> agenda+ Setup and Review Agenda
15:56:51 <agendabot> agenda+ Publication planning
15:56:51 <agendabot> agenda+ PR 3451: Another link checker fix
15:56:51 <agendabot> agenda+ PR 3416: Add MCP server
15:56:53 <agendabot> agenda+ PR 3449: Three Combobox Examples: Expand on click and improve filter behavior
15:56:56 <agendabot> agenda+ PR 2991: Add Practice Page for Supporting Color Contrast Settings
15:59:30 <Jem_> Jem_ has joined #aria-apg
16:00:12 <Jem_> zakim, start the meeting
16:00:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:00:14 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
16:02:01 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-apg
16:04:00 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
16:04:02 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
16:04:07 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
16:04:08 <Jem_> present+ jem
16:04:16 <jugglinmike> present+ siri
16:04:18 <jugglinmike> present+ Daniel
16:04:31 <jugglinmike> zakim, next item
16:04:32 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Setup and Review Agenda -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any requests for changes to the agenda?
16:05:06 <Daniel> present+
16:05:06 <jugglinmike> Jem_: Looks good to me!
16:05:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next meeting will be two weeks from today, July 22
16:05:31 <jugglinmike> Zakim, next item
16:05:31 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Publication planning -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:47 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/08-aria-apg-minutes.html Daniel
16:05:55 <siri4> siri4 has joined #aria-apg
16:05:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: On the 25th of June, we got our last publication out. That's marked "completed"
16:06:01 <Daniel> q+
16:06:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've verified that everything included in that publication is indeed live and appears good (at least, to a non-visual user)
16:06:16 <siri4> present+
16:06:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We ended up landing five pull requests. That's a really good and substantial update
16:06:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thanks to all who made that happen and to Daniel and Remi for making that happen
16:07:38 <jugglinmike> Daniel: Just to clarify: simply merging the pull request does not mean it is published. The WAI repository has a number of submodules, and we have a script that manages them. That is a deliberately-manual step that we perform to actually perform the publication
16:07:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does the person who merges also trigger the publication?
16:08:10 <JoeLamyman> JoeLamyman has joined #aria-apg
16:08:25 <JoeLamyman> present+
16:08:28 <jugglinmike> Daniel: Yes, generally, remi merges and publishes. In this latest publication, there was a delay because remi had another responsibility to attend to between those steps
16:08:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll keep that in mind for the future.
16:08:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Should I use the event of merging as the indicator that it is time to check the live site?
16:09:17 <jugglinmike> Daniel: Yes, for now. I'll discuss this with Remi because we used to post a comment after the merge once the publication had occurred
16:09:35 <jugglinmike> Daniel: For now, it's probably enough to simply wait 30 minutes after the merge to check the production site
16:09:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Moving forward, a comment would be helpful
16:09:50 <jugglinmike> Daniel: That's fair
16:10:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I tentatively set August 27th as a target date for the next publication
16:10:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The milestone currently includes a total of three pull requests
16:10:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does that seem like a good date?
16:10:46 <jugglinmike> Daniel: I'll be around. I'll see if Remi will be around, as well
16:10:56 <jugglinmike> Zakim, next item
16:10:57 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jugglinmike
16:11:13 <jugglinmike> Zakim, next agendum
16:11:13 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jugglinmike
16:11:19 <jugglinmike> q?
16:11:25 <jugglinmike> q- Daniel
16:11:30 <jugglinmike> ack Daniel
16:11:40 <jugglinmike> zakim, next item
16:11:40 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- PR 3451: Another link checker fix -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:11:53 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3451
16:11:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is a bit beyond my expertise
16:12:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've contacted howard-e about potentially taking a look
16:12:17 <Daniel> q+
16:12:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I did notice that one of the things this pull request does is remove the npm package named "node-fetch". I don't know why we were using it in the first place
16:13:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm looking for people who can review this pull request and who have at least some relevant experience from an engineering standpoint
16:14:03 <jugglinmike> Jem_: I'm a bit rusty in that sense. The issue isn't just about node-fetch, is it?
16:14:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: No, that's just one thing that I am curious about
16:14:41 <jugglinmike> Jem_: I wonder whether we have a better way to check the link. Its purpose is to find a broken link
16:15:20 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: I'm not familiar with this code, so I can't comment immediately. I'm not sure I have the bandwidth to review this week, either
16:15:51 <jugglinmike> Jem_: Well, the patch looks good to me.
16:16:10 <jugglinmike> Daniel: We had an issue with the UA strings we were using. That was apparently only one of the issues because the link checker is still failing.
16:16:29 <jugglinmike> Daniel: I asked Denis to take a look at the remaining issue, and this pull request is what they came up with
16:17:05 <jugglinmike> Daniel: I don't have enough expertise to determine the relevance of the removal of the "node-fetch" package, but I trust Denis' decisions on this
16:17:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have no particular reason to question. I'd just like to understand
16:17:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If howard-e didn't write this code, then he definitely at least contributed to it
16:18:07 <jugglinmike> Jem_: Perhaps spectranaut could own this. I believe she created the workflow
16:18:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The link checker was written long after spectranaut's contributions
16:19:46 <jugglinmike> Daniel: We had some errors with HTTP code 403. Initially that was because we were using an old user-agent string (for an old version of Chrome), but there were further failures
16:20:01 <jugglinmike> Daniel: It's those further failures that Denis is tackling with this pull request
16:20:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: One way to test this might be to merge these changes into some of the other pull requests that are out there, like pull request #2991
16:21:25 <jugglinmike> Daniel: The problem with this is that we should go back to those pull requests and remove this if we merge this to the main branch
16:21:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I can make a separate throwaway branch that combines the other pull request and this one, just for testing purposes
16:23:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe we can let this sit for a little while. We might be able to get howard-e or CurtBellow to review
16:23:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Could JoeLamyman take a look?
16:24:02 <jugglinmike> JoeLamyman: I'm not familiar with the Node.js code, so unfortunately, I don't think I'd be of much there. I can assist in functional testing on the test branches that Matt_King suggested created
16:24:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great!
16:24:35 <jugglinmike> Jem_: The code changes look hygienic enough to me, for what it's worth
16:24:40 <jugglinmike> Zakim, next item
16:24:40 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jugglinmike
16:24:45 <jugglinmike> q?
16:24:50 <jugglinmike> q- Daniel
16:24:58 <jugglinmike> Zakim, next item
16:24:58 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- PR 3416: Add MCP server -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:25:08 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3416
16:25:34 <jugglinmike> Daniel: We discussed this internally. It's not clear to us what value this could add given that our HTML already has good structure and semantics
16:25:45 <jugglinmike> Daniel: It would be another layer that we would have to support, and everyone has limited resources
16:27:08 <jugglinmike> Jem_: I like this idea. Why don't we ask the pull request author to give more detail?
16:27:30 <jugglinmike> Daniel: We're not sure what the value is. It seems as though you could point your LLM at the APG directly
16:28:22 <jugglinmike> Daniel: If there is value in this, I would like to know how it would be different than using the APG site as context rather than this MCP server
16:28:31 <jugglinmike> Jem_: I think it's about creating a Cursor skill
16:29:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I get that part, but the architecture of the solution--I don't know what the precedent is, but it's not like you go to various resources on the web... As far as I know, most models build context from resources without special files
16:29:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know what Jekyll would do with this stuff or how anyone would ever access it. What will the web server do with the content? How does an AI agent discover it?
16:29:56 <jugglinmike> Jem_: Can you assign this ticket to me so that I can do some additional research?
16:30:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sure. That's what Daniel and his team has been doing. If you think there is value in this and that the APG is the right place to put it--should w3.org have this kind of resource sprinkled throughout it?
16:30:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know enough about how you build MCP servers to know that this is the right place for the resource
16:31:26 <jugglinmike> Jem_: I may be naive, but a SKILLS.md for APG could be used in many places. If that's right, then maybe people who are using LLMs like Claude could use it to build more accessible user-interfaces
16:31:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I thought you need server infrastructure to support that, but I'm not sure w3.org has that infrastructure
16:31:58 <jugglinmike> Jem_: I think it could be worth considering. I'd like to do some research and report back
16:32:19 <jugglinmike> Daniel: Maybe it's better to open a separate issue to discuss this with the WAI team, including Remi. We're currently skeptical about this
16:32:33 <jugglinmike> Jem_: I understand that. I just want to research a bit further
16:32:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That goal is good and laudable, but implementable is a different topic
16:33:48 <jugglinmike> siri4: We have similar tools like JetStream... Even if a skill is there, it may not be added to the AI. You have to manually say, "add this skill to my AI". If the skill isn't present, then it will go and search outside itself
16:34:15 <jugglinmike> siri4: Adding the skill means that you don't have to tell the LLM explicitly
16:34:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Which means you need some way of surfacing the skill and making it available. I don't see the infrastructure in this pull request that would surface it and make it useful. That's the part I don't understand because I haven't done any work installing specific skills into an agent
16:35:07 <jugglinmike> Jem_: I'm interested in looking into this idea
16:35:13 <jugglinmike> zakim, next item
16:35:13 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- PR 3449: Three Combobox Examples: Expand on click and improve filter behavior -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:35:37 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3449
16:35:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Basically, this is a call for reviewers
16:36:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is a first-time contributor and someone who wants to make a valuable improvement to our combo-boxes
16:36:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We don't have enough people looking at this, yet
16:36:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It looks like Copilot has done a bunch of commenting on this pull request. I don't know how that got kicked off, and I don't know if the comments are good or bad, but they're there
16:38:03 <jugglinmike> Jem_: Did we enable Copilot in the repository? Or was it automatic?
16:39:25 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: The comment history includes an entry which reads, "Copilot AI review requested due to automatic review settings 3 weeks ago"
16:39:44 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: It sounds like it's possible for us to prevent this behavior if that's what we want
16:40:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm not necessarily suggesting that, but we should have a human review the Copilot-generated comments to determine whether they are useful
16:40:32 <jugglinmike> Jem_: Matt_King, your middle name is "Combo-box", not mine
16:40:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My main question for this meeting is, is there anyone here who is available for review?
16:40:59 <jugglinmike> JoeLamyman: I'm available to review it
16:41:05 <jugglinmike> Jem_: Thank you, JoeLamyman!
16:41:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thanks, JoeLamyman. I've added you
16:41:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There is a lot of detail in inssue 3442
16:41:38 <jugglinmike> JoeLamyman: I'll make sure to check that context before conducting my review
16:41:45 <jugglinmike> Zakim, next item
16:41:45 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- PR 2991: Add Practice Page for Supporting Color Contrast Settings -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:42:32 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2991
16:42:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is our color-settings practice
16:42:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: JoeLamyman reviewed it. Thank you, JoeLamyman
16:43:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: JoeLamyman reviewed it twice, actually. JoeLamyman initially gave jongund some substantial advice, and jongund incorporated that advice. I think that significantly improved the patch, so thank you JoeLamyman
16:43:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have some comments, but I have not put them in writing, yet
16:44:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My first question is related to a question that is actually in the content. I am search for the string "**". Point number 4, under the heading "support color scheme"
16:44:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This guidance--item number 4--is to use CSS filters on images to make them easier to view in color schemes
16:44:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: He's asking, is this something that we want to tell people to do?
16:45:03 <JoeLamyman> q+
16:45:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have zero expertise on this, but I'm hoping people in this room can weigh in on whether we keep, add, or remove the item
16:45:27 <jugglinmike> ack JoeLamyman
16:46:01 <jugglinmike> JoeLamyman: When I performed my initial review, I commented on some of the content on CSS filters. I don't think there's a way to do this in a way that is consistently usable, without making the images difficult to perceive
16:46:32 <jugglinmike> JoeLamyman: In the interest of consistency, I suggested that it was best not to use filters and for users to adjust their screen brightness.
16:46:53 <jugglinmike> JoeLamyman: Jongund agreed with me and decided to remove the text
16:47:07 <jugglinmike> Jem_: I support that suggestion, JoeLamyman
16:47:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It sounds like Jongund agreed with you, but maybe what he did here was to leave it as-is and throw it to review for the larger group
16:47:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm fine to step in and remove it. We really should have strong confidence before recommending anything. There's enough doubt in this meeting for me to want to remove it
16:48:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next up, under "increased contrast example", there is a table with seven columns, but there are a bunch of merged cells
16:48:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: One set of columns for text and one for buttons
16:48:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The part that's really confusing for me is that in the second row, the color columns are BG are text
16:49:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm concerned about "BG". I don't think that's universally understood as "background". "CCR" is "Creedence Clearwater Revival", so I'm uncertain about that, too
16:50:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I assume that jongund's motivation has to do with the challenges of cramming in seven columns
16:50:30 <jugglinmike> Jem_: On the row you are mentioning, there is a th... I don't know why he used an acronym
16:50:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm going to make some changes and bring them back to the group and ask you to review the tables to see if I messed them up in any way.
16:51:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think this page has really come a long way, and I'm excited to get it out there in our next publication
16:51:14 <jugglinmike> Jem_: I think it's a good idea to revise this table. I don't see why we need the acronyms
16:51:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I want to combine the first row, where it says "text" and "button"
16:51:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's pretty much the same kind of idea in the next example table, as well, so I'll do the same kind of thing there, too
16:51:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My next question is in the "SVG graphics" section. It's an editorial question about the first paragraph
16:52:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you read the entire section, you understand why this section is here. But when you first start reading it, the purpose is unclear
16:52:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It seems like there should be an introductory paragraph or sentence that states what is the point of this whole SVG thing
16:52:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think the point is that SVGs have advantages over other forms of images
16:53:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Bitmap isn't a very generic term? Doesn't that refer to a specific format
16:53:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is there are more generic term?
16:53:49 <jugglinmike> Jem_: "Non-SVG" ?
16:53:55 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: "raster-based image" ?
16:54:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do we just say, "SVGs have advantages over raster-based images?" and then list the specific advantages?
16:55:07 <jugglinmike> Jem_: Yes. It's good to let readers know what are the advantages of SVGs. Jongund is saying that with the table, but what is the advantages of SVG versus raster-based images in terms of color contrast?
16:55:17 <jugglinmike> Jem_: You can change SVG color using media queries
16:55:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's saying that if you user current-color, you don't have to use media queries
16:55:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe it's that SVGs can automatically change their colors? Or perhaps more than their colors
16:56:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Or perhaps we could state that "they can automatically adapt to user preferences based on the other settings that are described earlier in this article"
16:56:36 <jugglinmike> Jem_: So we start with the benefits of SVG and then go into the media query explanation
16:56:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It also mentions smooth scaling...
16:56:53 <jugglinmike> Jem_: I don't think that's relevant here.
16:57:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Smooth scaling is relevant to accessibility. When you zoom in, if you have a button (or toggle or switch) drawn with SVG, it automatically zooms and scales
16:57:45 <jugglinmike> Jem_: Right, but here we are talking about color contrast
16:58:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sure, but if we are making a list of advantages of SVG, we could include that as the final item in the list
16:58:17 <jugglinmike> Jem_: Will you make a new pull request?
16:58:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll probably just edit it directly in this pull request
16:58:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Unless anyone else would like to participate
16:58:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If there's no one else available when I do these other things, then I'll make an attempt
16:59:15 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
16:59:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Matt_King, jem, siri, Daniel, JoeLamyman
16:59:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:59:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/08-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
16:59:25 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:59:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg