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12:27:42 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:27:49 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2026-07-02: https://www.w3.org/mid/7D4068A9-BF28-48EC-93AE-779B6FAD6A70@neustudio.com
12:27:50 <ivan> Chair: wendy, susan
12:27:50 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:27:50 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/mid/7D4068A9-BF28-48EC-93AE-779B6FAD6A70@neustudio.com
12:27:51 <ivan> regrets+ avneeshsingh
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13:00:10 <shiestyle> present+
13:00:50 <ivan> present+
13:02:04 <ivan> present+ george, gregoriopellegrino, dale, are, susan
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13:04:31 <Hadrien> present+
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13:04:58 <duga> scribe+
13:05:26 <duga> wendyreid: As we are going through issues we see there are a bunch in propose closing
13:05:28 <GeorgeK> present+
13:05:31 <wendyreid> Topic: Propose Closing - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Apropose-closing
13:05:36 <duga> ... so we would like to clean those up
13:05:58 <duga> ... we will work through from oldest to newest
13:05:59 <wendyreid> Sub-topic: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2691
13:06:07 <ivan> q+
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13:06:18 <duga> ... first is extended description in EPUB 3, from gpellegrino
13:06:42 <duga> ... there are some suggestions to ARIA, but I don't see any changes we need in epub 3
13:06:45 <mgarrish> q+
13:06:48 <duga> ... where are we?
13:06:50 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:07:05 <duga> ivan: There were 2 choices
13:07:24 <duga> ... the epub reading systems tag is misleading, it is a11y
13:07:37 <duga> ... techniques
13:07:53 <duga> ... And that would unblock CR
13:08:09 <duga> ... ARIA doesn't depend on us, we can just suggest to them
13:08:19 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:08:32 <duga> ... I propose to remove the epub tags and mark it deferred and we are done
13:08:56 <duga> mgarrish: It is a proposal to ATA so it doesn't really fit
13:09:25 <duga> ... we have a doc with the proposal, and we have identified the issues, but we don't know where it will go
13:09:47 <duga> ... I don't know if we need to defer, since we have no idea when we will talk to APA
13:09:53 <duga> ... so just remove the tags
13:10:18 <duga> wendyreid: We will probably meet before tpac like we did last year
13:10:42 <duga> ... I am happy to remove the extra spec tags, and maybe in the future move this to them
13:10:53 <wendyreid> Sub-topic: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2716
13:11:06 <duga> ... next is one about content requirements for HTML
13:11:32 <duga> duga: I can't see any reason to keep it open
13:11:41 <wendyreid> Sub-topic: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2719
13:11:54 <duga> wendyreid: Great! Next is ARIA structural semantics
13:12:15 <mgarrish> q+
13:12:19 <duga> ... we had some caution in 3.4, is it already addressed?
13:12:20 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:12:58 <duga> mgarrish: This is a request to go over html elements with semantics, but this seems outside our scope
13:13:14 <duga> ... there isn't a clear request here
13:13:34 <sueneu2> q+
13:13:45 <duga> ... But how ARIA applies to HTML doesn't make sense for EPUB. There are better resources available
13:13:48 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:13:51 <duga> ... so there isn't much we can do
13:14:15 <duga> sueneu2: This is a bigger question. The poster is frustrated with how the spec relates to topology
13:14:31 <DaleRogers> q+
13:14:43 <duga> ... This is a bigger question about how we inform the community about what they should do
13:15:05 <duga> wendyreid: In this case it is hard, since we don't control the technologies in question
13:15:29 <gpellegrino> +1 to Matt
13:15:32 <sueneu2> q+
13:15:35 <duga> ivan: This really belongs to ARIA and HTML, it isn't our domain to get in here. It is up to HTML
13:15:44 <duga> s/ivan/mgarrish/
13:16:05 <GeorgeK> q+
13:16:06 <duga> ... I don't see it fitting in here. Entirely outside our domain.
13:16:23 <duga> ... and ARIA and HTML folks will gety annoyed with us
13:16:25 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:16:59 <duga> DaleRogers: It is not part of the spec, but referring them to an explainer? It is like a puzzle and just tell them how it works
13:17:07 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:17:15 <duga> ... Maybe just point at an explainer or note to help people
13:17:37 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:17:52 <duga> sueneu2: Thinking on the kindest and most helpful thing, is it just to close, or is it to add the resources Matt mentioned and leave it open for while?
13:18:08 <duga> GeorgeK: I say we add the DAISY KB links and close it
13:18:29 <duga> mgarrish: Where are we putting them?
13:18:40 <duga> GeorgeK: Just the bug
13:18:54 <wendyreid> Sub-topic: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2765
13:19:19 <duga> wendyreid: From gautierchomel_ about moving annotations issues
13:19:22 <ivan> present+ gautier
13:19:26 <duga> ... is this done?
13:19:34 <duga> gautierchomel_: Not completely
13:19:53 <duga> ... some issues are still in the CG. we just need someone with permissions to do it
13:20:03 <ivan> q+
13:20:04 <duga> ... there is a link to the old list in the issue
13:20:18 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:20:25 <duga> ... for all of them, we need to transfer them
13:20:49 <gautierchomel_> q+
13:20:59 <duga> ivan: This should have been done a year ago, but doing it right now makes me uneasy
13:21:06 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel_
13:21:10 <duga> ... we should review those to see if they still apply
13:21:31 <duga> gautierchomel_: Mostly they are addressed, but I would like to have everything in the same place
13:21:46 <duga> ... since it is where the annotation discussion is happening
13:22:19 <duga> ... Today to see what we have fixed I need to keep 2 repos open, I would prefer even the closed ones to get moved
13:22:42 <duga> ivan: I don't seem to have the permissions on the CG side, and you don't have the rights on the spec side
13:22:55 <duga> ... I will give you rights on the spec side so you can do it
13:22:55 <sueneu2> q+
13:23:17 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:23:26 <duga> ivan: But this is less urgent since it isn't under CR at the moment
13:23:53 <ivan> q+
13:23:56 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:24:02 <duga> sueneu2: Once it is in the repo, should we assign them to someone to make sure they are addressed? Some process
13:24:32 <duga> ivan: I think gautierchomel_ should move them and review them
13:24:44 <duga> wendyreid" Ok, gautierchomel_?
13:24:47 <duga> gautierchomel_: yes
13:24:59 <duga> wendyreid: And when you are done with that, please close this issue
13:25:06 <wendyreid> Sub-topic: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2946
13:26:03 <duga> ivan: I don't understand. In the image it shows blue text on black, but when I tested it it seems fine
13:26:28 <duga> ... I think we can just close it
13:26:44 <wendyreid> Sub-topic: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/3000
13:27:06 <duga> ivan: Who is responsible for what? That is the question here
13:27:24 <duga> ... I put in the proposal to close it, but no one has agreed
13:27:33 <Hadrien> +1 for closing
13:27:36 <shiestyle> +1
13:27:45 <sueneu2> +1 for closing
13:27:55 <duga> ivan: Ok, I will close it
13:28:20 <duga> ... should we take up 2719 now or later?
13:28:30 <duga> ... if later I will remove the epub spec tag
13:28:52 <duga> mgarrish: I am just writing some stuff up for it. It will be closed in about 10 minutes
13:28:55 <wendyreid> Topic: Annotations
13:29:24 <duga> wendyreid: We have open issues and PRs
13:29:38 <duga> ... is there anything we wanted to discuss
13:29:41 <duga> ... ?
13:29:44 <Hadrien> Laurent is currently in Malaysia, won't be back before July 10th
13:30:00 <wendyreid> subtopic: Annotation order - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/3030
13:30:02 <duga> wendyreid: Laurent opened an interesting issues
13:30:16 <duga> ... this is about order of annotations
13:30:45 <ivan> q+
13:30:45 <Hadrien> q+
13:30:49 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:30:54 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:30:54 <duga> wendyreid: Why can't we have access to the spine?
13:30:57 <ivan> q+
13:31:26 <duga> Hadrien: Usually to order, you need something to order on (percentage, page number, etc)
13:31:40 <duga> ... also you may have lost access to the content but still have the annotations
13:31:59 <duga> ... also could have services that deal only with the annotations
13:32:24 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:32:38 <duga> ivan: I believe it is good to have
13:32:58 <duga> ... we could just make the set a list and sort it
13:33:16 <duga> ... but we should probably add metadata to say what the order is
13:33:20 <Hadrien> q+
13:33:29 <duga> ... I might want to use size, or creation date, etc
13:33:48 <duga> ... we can add a property and some reasonable values for it
13:33:48 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:34:00 <duga> Hadrien: So I don't think that is how we should do it
13:34:16 <duga> ... We need to give the software the ability to order as it wants
13:34:45 <duga> ... There should be data in the annotations to sort it how it sees fit
13:34:58 <wendyreid> q+
13:35:02 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:35:09 <duga> ... so we need this information on a per annotation basis
13:35:22 <duga> wendyreid: It is an important feature
13:35:50 <duga> ... I do think it is a new field like playorder
13:35:58 <duga> q+
13:36:04 <Hadrien> FYI this is how we'll handle this in OPDS: https://drafts.opds.io/opds-progression-1.0.html#examples
13:36:11 <duga> ... we need some way to communicate this
13:36:12 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:36:17 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:36:35 <wendyreid> duga: Yes, if only we had some sort of a locator with ordering built into it (hahaha) (CFI)
13:36:45 <wendyreid> ... they are inherently sortable without the original source
13:36:57 <wendyreid> ... it's hard with a locator, it's so complex people don't implement
13:37:07 <wendyreid> ... if we stick ordering into locators, we need to use CFI
13:37:15 <wendyreid> ... the easier solution is playorder or whatever we call it
13:37:31 <wendyreid> ... the problem is that they have orders that can be determined, we are over-constrained
13:37:50 <wendyreid> ... knowing which annotation is which, the playorder could just be a hint, it might be wrong
13:37:56 <wendyreid> ... once you put the annotations into the book
13:38:01 <GeorgeK> q+
13:38:01 <ivan> q+
13:38:03 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:38:32 <duga> GeorgeK: Lars reminded me he has implemented CFI as open source
13:38:41 <duga> ... just advertising that here
13:38:52 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:39:07 <duga> ivan: I was going to say the same thing
13:39:58 <duga> ... if it was added we would have to porperly spec it
13:40:14 <duga> ... but I don't know where this idea of adding a property comes from
13:40:14 <wendyreid> q+
13:40:48 <duga> ... if I import it is good information to know that it is ordered and how
13:40:51 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:41:42 <duga> wendyreid: We need some sort of information about the location, since just knowing the file isn't enough to know where the annotation is
13:41:48 <Hadrien> q+
13:41:57 <duga> ... e.g. 3 annotations in chapter 3 we won't know the order
13:41:59 <duga> q+
13:42:04 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:42:11 <duga> ... we would need a more precise locator
13:42:50 <duga> Hadrien: Some locators are sortable. There are several in PDF.
13:43:15 <duga> ... in pre-paginated if you have the index and the total number you can sort
13:43:28 <duga> ... that was category 1
13:44:11 <duga> ... cat 2 is tiles, and you can figure it out spatailly [???]
13:44:22 <duga> ... in epub we calculate positions
13:44:58 <wendyreid> s/cat 2 is tiles, and you can figure it out spatailly [???]/category 2 is roll publications, you calculate the height of a publication by the tile height and number of tiles, and determine from there
13:45:06 <duga> ... we calculalte the total number of positions, and we know the current position
13:45:19 <duga> ... so we know the overall location
13:45:27 <ivan> q+
13:45:27 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:45:28 <duga> ... cfi wouldn't help with roll puibs
13:45:55 <wendyreid> duga: We did discuss this at some point, the conclusion was, sometimes you won't know the ordering of annotations, you may be able to guess
13:46:07 <wendyreid> ... you have to go through where in the HTML these are pointing to and sort
13:46:14 <wendyreid> ... that may not be done until the chapter is opened
13:46:38 <wendyreid> ... you'll have a rough sort by file referenced, people might be ok with that
13:46:38 <DaleRogers> q+
13:46:39 <wendyreid> ... "lazy" evauliation of resources
13:46:41 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:47:14 <duga> ivan: I am now horrified. Because the order of html and human perception may not be the same
13:47:26 <duga> ... They could be entirely different
13:47:36 <Hadrien> +1 for what Ivan just said, that's why it's calculated at rendering time in Readium
13:47:39 <duga> ... so I think we should keep away from it for now
13:47:41 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:49:02 <duga> DaleRogers: From web design, I know the DOM has a purpose. Everything is in it's own order. But if we annotate something in the DOM, does the order of the document determine the location, or do we have a seperate positioning for the annotation?
13:49:23 <duga> ... So CSS can change the apparent location of something
13:49:37 <duga> ... it sounds like a complicated can of worms
13:49:56 <Hadrien> q+
13:50:10 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:50:19 <duga> ivan: Yes, things can be moved via CSS, so the perception order can very different
13:50:43 <duga> Hadrien: The question is how deep do you want to go
13:50:51 <shiestyle> q+
13:50:56 <wendyreid> q+
13:51:10 <duga> ... I have to discuss with reading systems who are using pseudo-CFI, or XPointer, etc
13:51:12 <GeorgeK> q+
13:51:36 <duga> ... So this is really just contextual information, but you can't use it to actually place the annotations
13:51:48 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:51:50 <duga> ... if we want to go deeper we will be here for 5 years
13:52:09 <duga> shiestyle: We can push to RS
13:52:32 <duga> ... in the list of annotations to sort by date is easy for RS
13:53:08 <duga> ... If RS want to sort by location, since it is hard to maintain, should be up to RS implementations
13:53:27 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:53:53 <duga> wendyreid: I understand the technical challenge, but we have to consider the user need
13:54:19 <duga> ... Even just to get pretty close
13:54:34 <duga> ... The problem disappears with the book content
13:54:35 <gpellegrino> For accessibility we have A reading order...
13:54:47 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:55:01 <duga> GeorgeK: We have the a11y requirement to maintain a reading order
13:55:24 <duga> ... I realize CSS allows the order to change, but I hope we have something we can rely on
13:55:39 <duga> ... I think on export the RS should export the reading order
13:55:49 <DaleRogers> q+
13:56:05 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:56:10 <duga> ... The RS already needs to maintain this
13:56:19 <duga> DaleRogers: This seems to be on the RS side
13:56:46 <duga> ... We have talked about how authors style things and the RS just tosses it
13:56:52 <wendyreid> q+
13:57:03 <duga> ... so the order could just be the html reading order
13:57:13 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:57:23 <duga> ... so maybe we just say it is reading order and leave it up to the RS to figure it out
13:57:37 <duga> wendyreid: We can't generate an annotation without the book source
13:58:37 <duga> ... so we have the data at time of creation what the order is
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14:00:25 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/02-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
14:00:47 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:00:47 <RRSAgent> I see no action items