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11:32:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/07/01-rqtf-irc
11:32:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
11:32:04 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jasonjgw
11:32:16 <jasonjgw> meeting: RQTF meeting
11:32:20 <jasonjgw> chair: jasonjgw
11:32:23 <jasonjgw> present+
11:32:25 <jasonjgw> scribe+
11:32:31 <jasonjgw> regrets+ stacey
11:32:34 <jasonjgw> regrets+ scott_h
11:33:06 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Accessibility of Machine Learning and Generative AI draft.
11:33:06 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Media accessibility, coordination of work.
11:33:06 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Game accessibility.
11:33:06 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Miscellaneous topics.
12:51:58 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #rqtf
12:52:10 <jasonjgw> regrets+ josh
12:52:57 <jasonjgw> agenda?
13:01:37 <JPaton> JPaton has joined #rqtf
13:01:50 <janina> janina has joined #rqtf
13:02:00 <janina> present+
13:02:21 <JPaton> present+ John_Paton
13:03:55 <janina> scribe+
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13:04:13 <matatk> present+
13:05:41 <janina> zakim, next item
13:05:41 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Accessibility of Machine Learning and Generative AI draft. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:06:14 <janina> jasonjgw: Summarizes we're awaiting Janina's scturctural and content edits in a branch
13:06:32 <janina> jasonjgw: Meanwhile, we discussed issues for the WebAI IG conversation
13:07:01 <janina> jasonjgw: Add to that the ATAG attention in AI
13:07:14 <janina> jasonjgw: And lastly a WebMCP question posted by Matthew
13:07:45 <janina> jasonjgw: The issues are germane with MCP regardless that specific proposal
13:08:05 <janina> jasonjgw: Do have questions and issues to raise as we go ...
13:08:15 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
13:08:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/01-rqtf-minutes.html matatk
13:08:23 <janina> jasonjgw: Anyone with questions or issues so far?
13:08:23 <janina> [crickets]
13:08:37 <janina> subtopic: AI Redraft
13:08:46 <janina> janina: Still no text to review
13:09:51 <janina> subtopic: Coord re WebMCP, Web-AI, Etc
13:10:44 <matatk> Pointer to email to APA list et al about WebMCP: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2026Jun/0019.html
13:10:52 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
13:10:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/01-rqtf-minutes.html janina
13:11:57 <janina> q+
13:17:18 <janina> q?
13:18:48 <matatk> scribe+
13:19:00 <matatk> q+ jasonjgw
13:19:03 <matatk> ack janina
13:20:08 <matatk> janina: Generally in favor of the principle; against using accessibility infra in practice (more later); desire seems to be to build a deterministic structure to facilitate AI agents and give them opportunities that are more structured, apart from an HTTP request, where you don't know if it's a human or an agent. Maybe opportunity to do different
13:20:08 <matatk> rate allowances here.
13:21:31 <matatk> janina: Could facilitate deterministically what's open to agents, what's available, sounds like the semantic web. But, at least initially, against using accessibility tree for this, for reasons matatk mentioned about concerns it will be misused. Glad world has caught up to this, but copy it - don't co-opt it.
13:22:47 <janina> matatk: Seems to me we're concerned that opening the a11y tree people will stuff inappropriate things in ARIA to begin with, and it would go on from there
13:23:14 <janina> matatk: To some degree we're in the same situation even if we have a parallel structure, though.
13:24:16 <janina> janina: Maybe the ARIA structs become trimmed down as duplicative of what's in the MCP tree and works well
13:24:22 <janina> janina: We should consider that too
13:24:49 <janina> jasonjgw: Have a series of comment and questions after reading the Explainer this morning
13:25:11 <janina> jasonjgw: The info that's provided is different from a11y tree, imo
13:25:24 <janina> jasonjgw: The a`11y represents components available in the ui
13:25:48 <janina> jasonjgw: this agent interface rather provides functionality that doesn't conrrespond to anything in the UI
13:26:16 <janina> jasonjgw: e.g. a W3C TR type page, phps hierarchically organized -- no search
13:26:25 <matatk> q?
13:26:29 <janina> jasonjgw: the MCP could provide a search even though not on the TR page
13:26:30 <matatk> ack jasonjgw
13:26:38 <janina> jasonjgw: So not the same
13:27:09 <matatk> q+ to mention Adapt's work on form field purpose and maybe splitting the info between accTree and agentTree
13:27:26 <janina> jasonjgw: the MCP implementers are deciding what's exposed to the user API, and that's different from what the a11y UI structural mirror provides
13:27:49 <janina> jasonjgw: Wondering, did I read the Explainer correctly?
13:27:53 <janina> matatk: Sounds reasonable
13:28:44 <janina> jasonjgw: Next, Explainer is clear this API is to be used only where there's a live browser session -- it's intended as a background process
13:28:51 <janina> jasonjgw: That raises a11y questions
13:29:37 <janina> jasonjgw: Could we have functionality exposed to the agent but the underlying UI fails a11y somewhere; User then unable to use the agent UI?
13:30:02 <janina> jasonjgw: A semantically rich interface to a subset but with no good a11y
13:30:23 <janina> jasonjgw: Think this is an a11y issue we've not previously seen
13:30:33 <janina> jasonjgw: Am I overly concerned?
13:31:28 <janina> matatk: A good insight and it's likely because people will be excited and not worry about all the tag alongs
13:31:37 <janina> s/worry/worry enough/
13:31:51 <janina> matatk: It's taking us to a burden shifting situation
13:32:20 <janina> matatk: Shifting burden of checking the agent to someone who can't do that
13:32:40 <janina> matatk: An astute point we should call out
13:33:38 <janina> jasonjgw: Thirdly
13:33:43 <janina> jasonjgw: More of a question
13:34:04 <janina> jasonjgw: Seems having ability to interact this way is powerful especially for COGA
13:34:31 <janina> jasonjgw: but then we get back to the second point
13:34:44 <janina> jasonjgw: To monitor the agent and correct for its mistakes
13:35:05 <janina> jasonjgw: It shifts the cognitivwe process in is own right
13:35:25 <janina> jasonjgw: What will that effect be? Is it offset by the opportunity?
13:37:33 <janina> matatk: Vigilence of learning these skills is important to be cognizent of
13:37:46 <janina> janina: We're defining a new kind of AT here
13:38:06 <janina> matatk: A model tuned for a persons' ability
13:38:08 <matatk> q?
13:38:59 <janina> janina: I'd like to put AI on this job of developing those personalized AT
13:39:08 <janina> matatk: Security/privacy?
13:39:13 <janina> janina: YHes, but could be local
13:40:21 <janina> matatk: My excitment about the potential here is rather the opposite of Jason's concern
13:41:11 <janina> matatk: It's an opportunity to do so much more as a pwd
13:41:51 <janina> matatk: Noting there are three aspects to review
13:41:58 <janina> matatk: Jason looked at the Explainer
13:42:11 <janina> matatk: There's the proposed Accessibility Considerations section
13:42:35 <janina> matatk: There's an specific issue to respond on -- pointed in the email
13:43:06 <janina> zakim, next item
13:43:06 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
13:43:10 <janina> q?
13:43:14 <janina> ack ma
13:43:14 <Zakim> matatk, you wanted to mention Adapt's work on form field purpose and maybe splitting the info between accTree and agentTree
13:43:15 <janina> q?
13:43:23 <janina> zakim, next item
13:43:23 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Media accessibility, coordination of work. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:44:01 <janina> jasonjgw: Coordinating on advancing Immersive Captions to APA WG Note
13:44:15 <matatk> s/privacy?/privacy concerns - this would have to be done locally - but if it is observing use locally as janina mentioned, perhaps this is one way to solve the problem of raising awareness with users as to which settings they could change to make their experience much better./
13:44:59 <janina> janina: We were trying to get the CG into AP
13:45:21 <janina> janina: into APA in order to keep the same authors
13:45:31 <janina> janina: We got stuck with some, not all
13:45:49 <matatk> List of proposed meetings: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2026
13:46:44 <janina> matatk: There are several standing issues -- MAUR update funding; common taxonomy across web and broadcast;
13:46:52 <janina> matatk: Can talk about again
13:47:21 <janina> zakim, next item
13:47:21 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Game accessibility. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:47:43 <janina> jasonjgw: Notes MA and John have begun communicating on this
13:48:10 <janina> matatk: Where we stand is John is developing a gap analysis on gaming in general
13:48:47 <janina> jasonjgw: particular focus has been placed on understanding what skills and abilities are truly essential to a specific gaming task, and what incidental
13:49:29 <janina> johnI'm calling it itentional and unintentional friction
13:49:44 <janina> jasonjgw: Is a useful understanding for other contexts too
13:52:27 <janina> matatk: Recalls Ian Hamilton noting games are meant to be hard
13:52:53 <janina> matatk: There are trade-offs in how you make these things accessible
13:53:25 <janina> johnTotaly agree with the standards
13:53:34 <janina> johnbut the necessary friction thing is missing
13:54:09 <janina> joNo metric on how you note it's part of the intentional challenge that needs smoothing out
13:54:54 <janina> joComing to identifying mechanisms to challenges that need to stay and point to existing standards on how you do the details
13:55:19 <janina> jostrategy to identify core friction
13:55:44 <janina> matatk: doesn't it vary among different people?
13:56:56 <JPaton> https://github.com/w3c/rqtf/blob/JWJPaton-patch-1/Gaming_GAP_analysis.md
13:57:20 <janina> zakim, end meeting
13:57:20 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jasonjgw, janina, John_Paton, matatk
13:57:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:57:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/01-rqtf-minutes.html Zakim
13:57:32 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, janina; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
13:57:32 <janina> rrsagent, bye
13:57:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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