12:49:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:49:25 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/07/01-matf-irc
12:49:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:49:26 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Tanya
12:49:38 <Tanya> Zakim, this is MATF 1 July 2026
12:49:38 <Zakim> got it, Tanya
12:49:50 <Tanya> Meeting: MATF 1 July 2026
12:49:57 <Tanya> chair+
12:50:19 <Tanya> chair+ Tanya
12:50:40 <Tanya> agenda+ Success Criterion 2.5.3 - Label in Name
12:50:53 <Tanya> agenda+ Success Criterion 2.5.8 - Target Size (Minimum)
12:51:05 <Tanya> agenda+ Success Criterion 3.2.2 - On Input
12:51:17 <Tanya> agenda+ Definitions
12:51:27 <Tanya> zakim, agenda?
12:51:27 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
12:51:28 <Zakim> 1. Success Criterion 2.5.3 - Label in Name [from Tanya]
12:51:28 <Zakim> 2. Success Criterion 2.5.8 - Target Size (Minimum) [from Tanya]
12:51:28 <Zakim> 3. Success Criterion 3.2.2 - On Input [from Tanya]
12:51:28 <Zakim> 4. Definitions [from Tanya]
12:51:49 <Tanya> rrsagent, make minutes
12:51:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/01-matf-minutes.html Tanya
12:52:22 <Tanya> move to next agendum
12:52:22 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Success Criterion 2.5.3 - Label in Name -- taken up [from Tanya]
12:52:31 <Tanya> rrsagent, make minutes
12:52:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/01-matf-minutes.html Tanya
12:57:20 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #matf
12:57:57 <shoobe01> shoobe01 has joined #matf
12:58:36 <shoobe01> present+
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13:03:14 <Joe_Humbert> present+
13:03:17 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
13:03:25 <jwlilly> present+
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13:03:52 <quintinb> scribe: quintinb
13:05:14 <quintinb> zakim, agenda?
13:05:14 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
13:05:15 <Zakim> 1. Success Criterion 2.5.3 - Label in Name [from Tanya]
13:05:15 <Zakim> 2. Success Criterion 2.5.8 - Target Size (Minimum) [from Tanya]
13:05:15 <Zakim> 3. Success Criterion 3.2.2 - On Input [from Tanya]
13:05:15 <Zakim> 4. Definitions [from Tanya]
13:05:30 <quintinb> move to next agendum
13:05:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Success Criterion 2.5.8 - Target Size (Minimum) -- taken up [from Tanya]
13:05:48 <quintinb> move to previous agendum
13:06:04 <quintinb> open agendum 1
13:06:19 <quintinb> Fixing problems I created
13:06:20 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #matf
13:06:46 <Detlev> present+
13:09:19 <Detlev> q+
13:09:21 <quintinb> q?
13:10:03 <Tanya> ack detlev
13:12:03 <quintinb> Detlev: I think the difference here is some thing that is mainly more common for apps is that you have these complex components like tiles or cards that have several interactive elements, so it's not clear what the label is - the problem is knowing which elements should get a name. There are several names that need several focus stops that each
13:12:03 <quintinb> need a name or make them available through actions. If you have a card where labels are spoken one after another it can be incredibly confusing. It would be a disservice to people evaluating content if we didn't include it
13:12:10 <quintinb> q?
13:12:14 <pauljadam> q+
13:12:27 <quintinb> ack pauljadam
13:13:16 <jwlilly> q+
13:13:41 <quintinb> pauljadam it seems like it's going beyond the normative success criteria, this is just different values for the control. It's a lot of usability criteria like braille. I wouldn't put it there and put it in an understanding document. Maybe compare the difference, I don't know how you'd put it all into a note
13:15:08 <quintinb> ack jwlilly
13:16:51 <quintinb> jwlilly my includion of the picker and braille was kind of an argument against in the full accessible name - it's not necessarily something I think we should include in the note. I am fine with including it in the note in the understand or in the technique. Because it's fundamentally different from web it seems like it's something that would come
13:16:51 <quintinb> up regarding mobile apps
13:18:05 <quintinb> pauljadam it's a preference to have really long alt text
13:18:33 <Detlev> q+
13:19:05 <quintinb> pauljadam if I was to change something, I would make it a best practice to have the label at the beginning, and explain why. This SC is more about voice control and we seem to be focused on screen reader
13:19:15 <quintinb> ack Detlev
13:20:41 <quintinb> Detlev - this should be the other way around - it's not wrong to have a very long accessible name technically. As long as the visible name is in there. It would be bad practice not so much for voice control,, but for screen reader users. The point that the visible label at the beginning - at the moment it just has to be included somewhere, making
13:20:41 <quintinb> it useless, but it's embedded in WCAG.
13:21:45 <pauljadam> https://developer.apple.com/help/app-store-connect/manage-app-accessibility/voice-control-evaluation-criteria
13:22:33 <quintinb> pauljadam just to mention apple's nutritional labels have a voice control evaluation, where the label needs to be in the (i forgot the other one) - but that's why at CVS we go beyond WCAG
13:22:41 <quintinb> name - jeepers
13:23:27 <quintinb> pauljadam everyone has a different preference - apple used to have many sentences, now you only see the first word, and still numbers are faster
13:23:29 <quintinb> q?
13:25:10 <quintinb> Poll: Do you think we need to extend note one with an explaination of best practice (1 - yes, 0 -no)
13:25:21 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #matf
13:25:29 <pauljadam> +1
13:25:30 <quintinb> +1
13:25:31 <Detlev> present+
13:25:33 <Tanya> +1
13:25:40 <Detlev> +1
13:25:46 <jwlilly> +1
13:25:46 <shoobe01> +1
13:25:59 <Joe_Humbert> +1
13:26:47 <quintinb> ACTION: extend "Label in name" note one with an explanation of best practice
13:28:23 <quintinb> Poll: Do we need to move note 2 to an understanding document? (1 - yes, 0 - no)
13:28:39 <Detlev> 0
13:28:44 <pauljadam> +1
13:28:45 <jwlilly> +0
13:29:06 <quintinb> +1
13:29:10 <shoobe01> +1
13:29:10 <Tanya> +1
13:29:43 <Joe_Humbert> +1 just too much disagreement in the group to keep
13:29:58 <quintinb> ACTION: move note 2 to an understanding document
13:32:08 <Tanya> move to next agendum
13:32:08 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Success Criterion 2.5.8 - Target Size (Minimum) -- taken up [from Tanya]
13:36:59 <quintinb> shoobe01 No mostly done and looking for feedback - discussion of pixel sizes needs some re-working, I don't like dip. I need to double check other OS's to make sure we get everything uniform. I was trying to avoid being OS specific.
13:37:42 <pauljadam> can you just say 24 x 24 and leave out the "px" ?
13:37:57 <jwlilly> q+
13:38:57 <quintinb> shoobe01 I can put in specifics, but I was avoiding that
13:38:59 <quintinb> ack jwlilly
13:39:52 <quintinb> I wanted to answer pauljadam's question - you can identify the pixel units, but things get very tiny. I think excluding the unit is a bad idea - we should give developers a reference to make it easy for them.
13:40:07 <quintinb> We could always give them a pdf to print and let them cut it out
13:40:35 <quintinb> shoobe01 do we need be explicit on certain sizes
13:41:03 <quintinb> jwlilly - we should include a platform specific reference for them in terms they understand
13:41:08 <pauljadam> in code on iOS you just write midWidth: 24, minHeight: 24 so you don't add pt or px
13:41:20 <quintinb> pauljadam lucky
13:41:41 <shoobe01> q+
13:42:37 <quintinb> ack shoobe01
13:43:32 <quintinb> shoobe01 I forgot to point out - what terms are we using for referring to this - MATF Group Note Draft? Is MATF right? If you don't know we need to keep it in mind
13:44:11 <quintinb> shoobe01 should MATF be in the wording or WCAG's term for mobile?
13:44:42 <quintinb> q?
13:44:43 <Tanya> move to next agendum
13:44:44 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Tanya
13:44:56 <quintinb> ack shoobe01
13:45:00 <quintinb> move to next agendum
13:45:00 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, quintinb
13:45:08 <quintinb> q?
13:45:17 <quintinb> q?
13:45:22 <Tanya> move to next agendum
13:45:22 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Tanya
13:45:23 <quintinb> ack shoobe
13:45:32 <quintinb> move to next agendum
13:45:32 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Success Criterion 3.2.2 - On Input -- taken up [from Tanya]
13:46:34 <quintinb> lol - On Input, taken up
13:47:04 <pauljadam> Understanding page for that SC says "This behavior of phone fields is described for the user at the beginning of the form."
13:47:36 <pauljadam> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/general/G13
13:47:41 <pauljadam> Examples
13:47:41 <pauljadam> A select dropdown at the top of a page includes options for German, French and Spanish. Instructions preceding the dropdown instruct the user that the language will be changed upon selecting an option.
13:47:41 <pauljadam> A 50-question online survey displays one question at a time, with each answer marked up as a toggle button. Instructions appear at the beginning of the survey that explain that users will be taken to the next question of the survey upon selecting an answer to each question.
13:47:48 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I don't have examples off hand. User are advised of behaviour beforehand - I need examples from a mobile perspective
13:48:06 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert if you can give me examples I'll update the language
13:48:59 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert are those app patterns?
13:49:21 <quintinb> pauljadam one example is for date of birth - it automatically jumps across fields
13:49:46 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert are those specifi mobile app examples?
13:50:09 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I don't see the point of adding generic examples
13:50:20 <quintinb> pauljadam I don't see how we need to tweak it for mobile
13:51:05 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert The request for examples was because people may not have mobile specific examples
13:52:05 <quintinb> pauljadam there may be confusion around context versus content - that they need to warn the user before. That's not really required.
13:52:22 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert If you look at change of context does have content change
13:52:31 <quintinb> pauljadam only if it changes the meaning of the page
13:52:39 <quintinb> pauljadam it's not well defined
13:53:03 <Detlev> q+
13:53:03 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert That's a larger problem - it seems we don't need examples - I guess we can call it good
13:54:24 <Detlev> q+
13:54:29 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert the intent section doesn't have an id for me to point to
13:54:36 <quintinb> ack Detlev
13:54:41 <pauljadam> a new mobile / modern example could be the 2 factor authentication code where when you type all the values then it automatically submits I guess that would need a warning before hand right?
13:56:04 <quintinb> Detlev do we need to think of the case of things like radio inputs behaving like buttons - like controls that create an expectation and then a change of context happens, but for something like a radio and in a range of questions when an option is selected it changes the screen, but it's not ok if it's a radio (ok for a button)
13:56:31 <quintinb> pauljadam that sounds like an example in G.13 - when clicking an answer it goes to the next page
13:57:04 <quintinb> pauljadam if you need a modern example - 2FA is an example, when you type the last digit it auto-submits
13:57:14 <quintinb> I hate that pattern, pauljadam
13:57:32 <quintinb> (on a personal level)
13:57:59 <pauljadam> quintinb well it does save you time so if there is a warning and it makes things faster for the user then seems fine to me :)
13:58:18 <quintinb> I love it when it auto-copies from messages!
13:58:32 <pauljadam> Like when apple auto pastes in the code then it submits and you dont have to click the submit button
13:58:40 <quintinb> aww yeah!
14:00:16 <shoobe01> Yes, I'll take help with scope of discussion for #247. Not sure what all is available as options but happy to write once I get that.
14:00:21 <shoobe01> Maybe collaborate with someone else?
14:00:33 <quintinb> q?
14:01:05 <quintinb> Yeah add me to it - I'll add some comments
14:04:32 <Tanya> Zakim, list participants
14:04:32 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been shoobe, Joe_Humbert, jwlilly, Detlev
14:05:09 <Tanya> present+ pauljadam
14:05:21 <Tanya> Zakim, list participants
14:05:22 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been shoobe, Joe_Humbert, jwlilly, Detlev, pauljadam
14:05:33 <Tanya> rrsagent, make minutes
14:05:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/07/01-matf-minutes.html Tanya
14:06:21 <Tanya> present+ quitinb
14:06:39 <Tanya> present+ quitinb
14:06:46 <Tanya> Zakim, list participants
14:06:46 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been shoobe, Joe_Humbert, jwlilly, Detlev, pauljadam, quitinb
14:07:19 <Tanya> rrsagent, bye
14:07:19 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2026/07/01-matf-actions.rdf :
14:07:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: extend "Label in name" note one with an explanation of best practice [1]
14:07:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/07/01-matf-irc#T13-26-47
14:07:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: move note 2 to an understanding document [2]
14:07:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/07/01-matf-irc#T13-29-58