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12:02:43 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:02:59 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2026-06-25: https://www.w3.org/mid/BE2CCCB8-78A5-4DB1-BBAE-48E2A15AFAB3@neustudio.com
12:03:00 <ivan> Chair: wendy, susan
12:03:00 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:03:00 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/mid/BE2CCCB8-78A5-4DB1-BBAE-48E2A15AFAB3@neustudio.com
12:03:01 <ivan> regrets+ gautier
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13:05:03 <wendyreid> Topic: EPUB 3.4 CR
13:05:03 <Hadrien> present+
13:05:30 <duga> wendyreid: Should we go to CR with 3.4. But what does that mean?
13:06:10 <duga> ivan: Without the details, the group declares we are done with the technical work and we consider the technical work done
13:06:25 <duga> ... this is just a declaration of that
13:06:25 <Hadrien> q+
13:06:44 <duga> ... but we can't make further technical changes unless they are clear errors
13:06:58 <gautierchomel_> gautierchomel_ has joined #pmwg
13:07:00 <duga> ... we need to be at CR for some amount of time before we can go to rec
13:07:14 <duga> ... the main goal would then be testing
13:07:35 <gautierchomel_> present+
13:07:43 <duga> ... we already have about 100 or 150 tests in the form of books
13:08:03 <duga> ... so a RS should run all those books to verify they pass
13:08:04 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/
13:08:27 <duga> ... We have to show that at least every test has 2 passes
13:08:42 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/results
13:08:47 <duga> ... And they should be independent
13:09:13 <duga> ... So we need at least 2, but 4 or 5 would be great
13:09:43 <duga> ... Once all tests have passed and no technical errors have been found, then we can go to rec
13:10:27 <duga> ... There are more details on the specifics, but Matt and I can handle those
13:10:56 <duga> ... we will need all horizontal reviews done
13:11:50 <duga> ... They are all done except security, in other conversations we have discussed and feel we can continue without it
13:12:09 <duga> ... we can just call time on it, since there aren't many changes
13:12:31 <DaleRogers> q+
13:12:37 <duga> ... We have discussed with ISO, they will informally review the document to see if there are any hurdles for publishing at ISO
13:12:48 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:13:03 <duga> Hadrien: Some questions on open issues
13:13:35 <duga> ... There was an issue on multigranularity that applies to structural semantics - is that doc covered?
13:13:39 <duga> ivan: No
13:14:09 <duga> Hadrien: We also have informative text that could impact the core spec
13:14:23 <duga> ... I also did not open an issue on light novels
13:14:40 <duga> ... But I am doubtful that mixed layout has 2 implementations in the wild
13:14:51 <ivan> q+
13:15:11 <duga> ... I haven't double checked the tests for 3.4, but I don't think it is there
13:15:21 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:15:23 <duga> ... If we were to add testing for it, I doubt we would pass
13:15:52 <duga> ivan: One releveant item - if a feature doesn't pass tests, then that feature should be removed
13:16:23 <duga> ... In our case we are special, so we use one of our specialized labels but leave it in
13:16:41 <duga> q+
13:16:44 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:17:08 <duga> DaleRogers: Is there a time limit on CR? Since we are depending on other people
13:17:33 <duga> ... Is the testing done by third parties or is  it this group?
13:17:41 <sueneu> q+
13:17:54 <duga> ivan: For the first, there is no limit. Some groups stay in CR for yearsa
13:18:05 <duga> ... As for the testing, good question
13:18:16 <duga> ... Previously, we said anyone can do it
13:18:47 <duga> ... But it looks better if the company self tests
13:19:22 <duga> ... Because the tests can be used by the reading systems to identify their own problems
13:19:53 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:19:55 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:20:21 <wendyreid> duga: on the mixed format publications, we've sort of known its been an issue, certainly not new now
13:20:45 <Hadrien> q+
13:21:06 <wendyreid> ... there's reading systems that pass each, but nothing requiring a combination, ideally we should, but if we do it, and fail, we'll need to rewrite a lot of the spec, but it's not one feature
13:21:32 <wendyreid> ... we'd need to introduce the concepts of a just fixed or just flowing document, it may be worthwhile, but we should be prepared for work
13:21:53 <wendyreid> ... but if we want to do it, we need to undertake it as a project
13:21:58 <wendyreid> ... decide on it now
13:22:16 <duga> wendyreid: I am interceding as chair
13:22:32 <duga> ... this is in the charter for 3.5, and I agree this is a big project
13:23:08 <duga> ... I think we need to be more research, etc. I don't think it is worth hinging CR on it as we need to spend more time on it
13:23:13 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:23:20 <duga> ... and it isn't in the charter for 3.4, but it is for 3.5
13:23:37 <duga> sueneu: Are there consequences for the security review?
13:24:08 <duga> wendyreid: We did security for 3.3, very thorough. We expect minimal things if anything
13:24:43 <wendyreid> duga: I did look through the security reviews repo, there are multiple open reviews with no activity, lots of groups in the same position, this is a W3C problem
13:24:55 <wendyreid> ... we're not to blame for this
13:25:04 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:25:40 <duga> Hadrien: On mixed layout, the work we have done makes it easier. It is a single feature
13:26:01 <duga> ... there are not that many references to it, so I am not convinced that it will be that hard to remove
13:26:06 <ivan> q+
13:26:08 <wendyreid> q+
13:26:20 <wendyreid> ack iv
13:26:30 <duga> ... I disagree with pushing this off. Is it responsible of us to keep pushing this off?
13:27:09 <duga> ivan: I don't have all the facts, so I would like to see what it means to remove it. I would like to see a PR of what needs to be done to remove it
13:27:20 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:27:55 <duga> wendyreid: To clarify, from out of the blue, I mean that this was never discussed as something we want to handle in 3.4
13:28:34 <duga> ... EPUB 3.4 came out of problems found in 3.3, we are seeing that again - 3.5 is intended to address the things that came out of 3.4
13:29:08 <duga> ... I think this deserves the time and consideration, and shouldn't be hurried in now
13:29:23 <Hadrien> q+
13:29:26 <duga> ... And we can make it part of new features, like full bleed images
13:29:55 <shiestyle> q+
13:30:16 <duga> ... we aren't pushing it out that far
13:30:25 <duga> ... since we are discussing recharter now
13:30:27 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:30:30 <duga> q+
13:31:05 <duga> Hadrien: I am not saying we should work on a solution now, but we should warn people about it and test it properly
13:31:34 <duga> wendyreid: We will have tests for this feature
13:31:45 <duga> Hadrien: So if we fail, then we need to remove it
13:32:19 <duga> shiestyle: I agree with moving it to 3.5. The situation hasn't changed, and we should take the time to address it
13:32:25 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:32:33 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:32:37 <ivan> ack shiestyle
13:32:42 <ivan> q+
13:32:51 <gpellegrino> q+
13:33:03 <wendyreid> duga: So we will have tests for mixed documents, if we don't get 2 implementations, will we deprecate the issue?
13:33:05 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:33:27 <duga> ivan: We have to check something, but the current suite is an extension of 3.3
13:33:57 <duga> ... So we are adding tests on top of 3.3
13:34:06 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:34:07 <duga> ... We need to check to see if this was tested at 3.3
13:34:07 <ivan> q+
13:34:16 <duga> ... so I don't really have all the info
13:34:33 <duga> gpellegrino: For the tests, how do you test if it passes or not?
13:34:50 <duga> ... if you open a mixed doc the cotent displays
13:34:52 <duga> q+
13:34:59 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:35:12 <duga> wendyreid: we have 2 up to date tests, and we have older tests
13:35:13 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:35:13 <DaleRogers> q+
13:35:37 <duga> ivan: we have some test results from the previous run
13:36:12 <duga> ... We have JSON file with the test results
13:36:22 <duga> ... What do we do with the results this time?
13:36:37 <duga> ... do we have everyone re-run all the tests, or just the new ones?
13:36:51 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:37:26 <wendyreid> duga: I disagree with Gregorio, there are specific rendering guidelines for FXL, something displaying doesn't necessarily pass the test
13:37:28 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:37:29 <sueneu> +1 brady
13:37:46 <ivan> q+
13:37:54 <duga> AvneeshSingh: We have one implementation
13:38:23 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:38:25 <duga> ... We had a similar issue, we didn't remove it but we just made it non-normative
13:38:39 <duga> DaleRogers: It sounds like the process is more than just passing epubcheck
13:38:54 <duga> ... there is a rubric, so who makes that?
13:38:58 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:39:11 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/results
13:39:16 <duga> ivan: If you look at tests, the first page explains what you should see
13:39:31 <duga> ... so the rubric is in the book itself for each test
13:39:42 <duga> ... AvneeshSingh, you are both right and wrong
13:40:07 <duga> ... epubcheck is separate, and it is not part of this testing
13:40:51 <duga> ... there is work to do to make epubcheck work with 3.4 , but that is ongoing
13:41:22 <duga> ... The charter does require a new epubcheck with 3.4, but it separate from the traditional CR testing
13:41:28 <wendyreid> q?
13:42:18 <Hadrien> q+
13:42:25 <duga> wendyreid: We had a process for backwards compatibility, we can mark a feature as at risk
13:43:05 <duga> ... This isn't just a single feature, we don't really call it out. We could add a note at the spine override
13:43:23 <duga> ... But I would like to worry about this later
13:43:30 <duga> ... we may actually have the 2 passes
13:43:52 <duga> ... We actually have 4 passes on similar tests
13:44:18 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:44:28 <duga> ... If we decide we have to solve it we may need an immediate re-charter
13:44:51 <duga> Hadrien: I can point where it is referenced - 6.2 and 6.3.1
13:45:03 <duga> ... The are short, then there are some examples
13:45:09 <duga> ... so it is pretty narrow
13:46:06 <duga> ... when it comes to specialized reading systems, it requires very precise conditions to work, they are not the general case we expect
13:46:28 <duga> ... so it is fine to wait until the test fails, we just need to make sure the test is accurate
13:46:36 <wendyreid> q+
13:46:40 <duga> ... so the documents have to have real HTML in them
13:46:58 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:47:01 <duga> ... so we just need to be extra careful about what we mean with specialized reading systems
13:47:21 <Hadrien> q+
13:47:38 <duga> wendyreid: That is a completely valid implementation of that feature. We don't tell people what to put in their content
13:47:50 <duga> ... so while it is narrow, it is valid
13:47:51 <ivan> q+
13:48:06 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:48:12 <shiestyle> q+
13:48:23 <duga> Hadrien: What I described is a partial implementation
13:48:30 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:48:33 <duga> ... but moving to CR is fine, assuming we have tests
13:48:59 <duga> ivan: I would ask that someone add that test who is knowledgable on the topic
13:49:33 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:49:42 <duga> ... we shouldn't wait for this to go to CR, we can deprecate later if we need to
13:50:03 <ivan> q+
13:50:10 <duga> shiestyle: If some features are only in Japanese reading systems, and we deprecate those features, we would have to object
13:50:29 <duga> ... So if 2 or more implementations exist it is valid
13:50:55 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:51:22 <duga> ivan: The source of the implementation (e.g. country) is irrelevant for CR
13:51:43 <duga> ... so if there are 2 Japanese implementations, that is fine. It is considered passed
13:52:32 <duga> wendyreid: For that reason I don't even want to add an at risk to this
13:52:41 <ivan> q+
13:52:53 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:53:09 <duga> ... so we may not have enough implementations to be comfortable, but we would still pass CR so shouldn't use at-risk
13:53:45 <Hadrien> q+
13:53:49 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:53:50 <duga> ivan: The goal of CR is to show a feature can be implemented. That is why we have the low bar of 2. It just shows it is possible to do, not that everyone does it
13:54:16 <duga> Hadrien: To clarify, if we have 2 implementations then it isn't an issue. I just want to make sure the scope of the tests is correct
13:54:35 <duga> ... We need to test the spec, and not design the tests for the reading systems
13:54:52 <duga> wendyreid: I will take an action item to review the tests in that section
13:55:10 <duga> ... we will have a more robust set of tests
13:55:34 <wendyreid> PROPOSED: Progress EPUB 3.4, EPUB Reading Systems 3.4, and EPUB Accessibility 1.2 to Candidate Recommendation.
13:55:40 <shiestyle> +1
13:55:41 <duga> +1
13:55:41 <ivan> +1
13:55:43 <toshiakikoike> +1
13:55:43 <gman> +1
13:55:43 <AvneeshSingh> +1
13:55:43 <sueneu> +1
13:55:43 <wendyreid> +1
13:55:45 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
13:55:48 <gautierchomel_> +1
13:55:48 <DaleRogers> +1
13:55:49 <Makoto> +1
13:56:11 <Hadrien> +1
13:56:32 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Progress EPUB 3.4, EPUB Reading Systems 3.4, and EPUB Accessibility 1.2 to Candidate Recommendation.
13:56:41 <gpellegrino> +1
13:57:06 <duga> ivan: Procedurally, this becomes valid in 1 week, so people not on the call can object if they want
13:57:27 <Makoto> +q
13:57:33 <wendyreid> ack Makoto
13:57:40 <duga> ... and we may not get the actual CR until end of July
13:58:04 <duga> Makoto: Can SC34 distribute the text before our meeting in August [SC34 meeting]?
13:58:13 <duga> ivan; The text is public
13:58:36 <duga> Makoto: So it will be available at the beginning of August?
13:58:36 <wendyreid> https://w3.org/TR/epub-34
13:58:53 <duga> ivan: Yes, but the format will change so that isn't final
13:59:30 <duga> Makoto: But I shouldn't say it is CR now, I should wait a week
13:59:34 <duga> wendyreid: Yes
13:59:44 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:59:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/25-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
14:01:09 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:01:09 <RRSAgent> I see no action items