16:56:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:56:04 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/25-aria-irc
16:56:04 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:56:05 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:56:08 <jamesn> Agendabot, find agenda
16:56:08 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:56:09 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/690d057f-db6d-4169-b13f-68d7f1336b59/20260625T130000/
16:56:09 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:56:09 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-06-19+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
16:56:09 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://is.gd/3DA7UC
16:56:12 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://tinyurl.com/wpt-a11y
16:56:14 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:56:17 <agendabot> agenda+ -> aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691
16:56:20 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Allow aria-valuetext for use with combobox role https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2417
16:56:23 <agendabot> agenda+ -> 9.3 Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution does not consider custom element use cases https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2303
16:56:26 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Explicit vs implicit roles for elementInternals https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2686
16:56:29 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Allow treeitems to omit groups by specifiying aria-level, aria-posinset, and aria-setsize https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2091
17:01:13 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:01:18 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:01:19 <smockle> present+
17:01:28 <pkra> present+
17:01:37 <cyns> present+
17:01:47 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:01:55 <katez> katez has joined #aria
17:02:39 <filippo-zorzi> filippo-zorzi has joined #aria
17:02:46 <Daniel> scribe+
17:02:51 <giacomo-petri1> giacomo-petri1 has joined #aria
17:02:55 <HaTheo> HaTheo has joined #Aria
17:02:56 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:02:58 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:02:58 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-06-19+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:02:58 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:03:01 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:03:02 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:03:04 <HaTheo> present+
17:03:05 <Daniel> present+
17:03:09 <katez> present+
17:03:19 <JohnJansen> present+
17:03:47 <Daniel> jamesn: None of this we need to look at.
17:03:52 <Daniel> ... 2824 dependabot
17:04:00 <Daniel> ... editorial update taxonomy of states and properties
17:04:07 <Daniel> pkra: Easier reviews if someone wants to have a look
17:04:38 <Daniel> ... Good to get an understanding of the spec
17:04:44 <Daniel> theo: I'll take a look
17:05:13 <Daniel> pkra: The next one is even easier, adding the synonymous
17:05:23 <Daniel> Theo: Happy to take a look at this one too
17:05:43 <Daniel> katez: I'll also take a look at this
17:05:54 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:05:54 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New Issue Triage https://is.gd/3DA7UC -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:54 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:05:57 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:06:06 <CurtBellew> present +
17:06:13 <Daniel> jamesn: 9 new issues
17:06:19 <Daniel> pkra: You can ignore the ifrst one
17:06:26 <Daniel> jamesn: Structured content for aria-notify
17:06:33 <benbeaudry> benbeaudry has joined #aria
17:06:36 <benbeaudry> present+
17:06:44 <Daniel> ... This is from the i18n review
17:06:59 <Daniel> pkra: I tried to find the conversation where it was dec ided for the future
17:07:08 <Daniel> jamesn: We need to pull in the person working on aria-notify
17:07:30 <twilco> twilco has joined #aria
17:07:30 <smockle> https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1958#discussioncomment-12504965
17:07:38 <Daniel> sarah: Goughd and Jacque. Not sure how this owuld work
17:07:41 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
17:07:44 <smockle> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2478
17:07:52 <Daniel> jamesn: Probably we can just put a note
17:07:53 <Daniel> q+
17:07:55 <aardrian> present+
17:07:59 <Daniel> q-
17:08:13 <Daniel> pkra: Specific question is if we've considered structured content, and we have
17:08:31 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
17:08:31 <Daniel> Clay: Just dropped a couple links on irc for context, I'll put them in the issue
17:08:43 <sarah> present+
17:09:14 <Daniel> jamesn: Add specific language and direction metadata to aria-notify. Can I do the same thing with this Clay?
17:09:16 <Daniel> Clay: Will do
17:09:33 <Daniel> JamesN: Translatable attributes
17:09:42 <Daniel> Clay: This is not aria-notify specific
17:09:48 <Daniel> jamesn: We've looked at this before
17:10:06 <Daniel> ... Would anyone want to take this on as a research for us to be able to put something in?
17:10:14 <Daniel> pkra: You can assign it to me
17:10:53 <Daniel> jamesn: Next is on the editors agenda
17:11:16 <Daniel> ... Browser Testing and Tools WG have it in their charter but want to drop it because there hasn't been enough progress
17:11:40 <Daniel> Daniel: Editors draft uris is for editors too
17:11:55 <Daniel> jamesn: Mappings for row and gridcell elements with aria-checked
17:12:38 <Daniel> Theo: It's not clear how this would map in AX, current mapping using menuitemmarkchart, doesn't seem right for this, just wanted to make sure there's an appropriate mapping for it
17:13:17 <Daniel> jamesn: add value attribute as name source for input type=image
17:13:23 <Rahim> present+
17:13:43 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:13:51 <Stefan> present+
17:14:20 <Daniel> ... Value is allowed in an input, seems like it should be
17:14:26 <Daniel> giacomo-petri: It's not
17:14:45 <Daniel> jamesn: Should weinclude something in the accname calculation that is not valid hTML?
17:14:59 <aardrian> No.
17:15:17 <Daniel> giacomo-petri: I believed it was. Since it's not, we should do something about it. Browsers are considering it to remediate author errors but that's not a reason for us to include it
17:15:29 <Daniel> Jamesn: I agree with that. Can you add a comment to the issue?
17:15:33 <Daniel> giacomo-petri: Yes
17:15:34 <Daniel> q?
17:15:37 <pkra> agenda?
17:16:23 <Daniel> jamesn: aria-level relation with heading offset
17:16:36 <keithamus> q+
17:16:40 <Daniel> ... Good question
17:16:44 <jamesn> Ack keithamus
17:16:48 <aardrian> Q+
17:17:07 <jamesn> Ack aa
17:17:11 <Daniel> keithamus: I think this is already the case in engines, that's why we set it to level 9. If I recall, in Chrome, any values above9 get reset. Agree the spec should reflect reality
17:17:25 <Daniel> aardrian: Also platform related
17:17:35 <Daniel> jamesn: Does someone want to addd it as a comment?
17:17:37 <Daniel> aardrian: I can
17:17:42 <Daniel> keithamus: I can take that one as well
17:18:15 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:18:15 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://tinyurl.com/wpt-a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:15 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:18:49 <dgrogan> dgrogan has joined #aria
17:19:15 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:19:24 <jcraig> present+
17:20:02 <Daniel> jcraig: First one. I discovered that Jacque is not a WPT reviewer
17:20:16 <Daniel> ... I asked Simont to add him to the reviewers lists
17:20:24 <Daniel> ... Will do the same thing for the next issue
17:20:40 <Daniel> ... Anybody on the Edge side
17:21:00 <Daniel> Theo: I didn't see this one, relates to something I need to do on my PR
17:21:35 <Daniel> jcraig: Next. Cynthia reviewed itk, same issue
17:21:45 <Daniel> s/Next/68533/
17:22:03 <jamesn> S/68533/60533/
17:22:44 <Daniel> jcraig: Candidate tests for the flat tree
17:22:53 <Daniel> Theo: Not urgent, if people wantto review that's fine
17:23:20 <Daniel> jcraig: 60503
17:23:33 <Daniel> ... This seems like a great use of the new functionality.
17:24:25 <Daniel> ... I'm reluctant to merge it given we don't have two "checks"
17:24:48 <Daniel> ... Chrome and Safari don't havesupport for it yet, FireFox has a different result
17:25:00 <Daniel> ... It's ont clear which is which
17:25:35 <Daniel> ... I'd like to ask for the opinion of the group on whether we can just merge and assume this will work sometime in the future or wait until we have more validation
17:25:41 <cyns> q+
17:25:44 <Daniel> q+
17:25:54 <jamesn> Ack cyns
17:26:01 <Daniel> cyns: Isn't it what tentative is for?
17:26:25 <Daniel> jcraig: This is different. If all of them had a similar result that would mean that the method is implemented and that failure represents a real bug in the browser
17:27:16 <Daniel> qTheo: This one is specifically not passing even with the patch
17:27:47 <Daniel> ... For Chrome Val was working on this, I didn't do anything forSafari
17:27:58 <Daniel> ... Worth asking ourselves if this is the desired outcome
17:28:11 <Daniel> ... Should we be checking things that are at the bleeding edge?
17:28:46 <Daniel> jcraig: If it has any support maybe. Some old ones threw a "spec ambiguous" result
17:29:02 <Daniel> ... For this one I would expect testing the ones that pass too
17:29:39 <Daniel> ... Then we would have a baseline pass. That would make me more comfortable s to what we are actually testing
17:30:13 <jamesn> Ack Daniel
17:30:33 <Daniel> jcraig: Thanks Theo for all your work
17:30:41 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:30:41 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:30:41 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:30:55 <Daniel> jamesn: I propose not to plan any for now, it's the summer
17:31:13 <Daniel> ... Are folks generally available next week for meetings knowing that the  Friday is a US holiday?
17:31:19 <Daniel> aardrian: Out next week
17:31:37 <Daniel> jcraig: I'll be working
17:31:45 <Daniel> jamesn: We will probably still run the meeting
17:31:49 <Daniel> zakim, close this item
17:31:49 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
17:31:50 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:31:50 <Zakim> 5. -> aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691 [from agendabot]
17:31:51 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:31:51 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:32:01 <Daniel> jamesn: Where are we?
17:32:33 <jcraig> q+
17:32:37 <jamesn> Ack jc
17:33:10 <Daniel> jcraig: I think we are coming around to the fact that focus can be modified based on an AT trigger
17:33:30 <Daniel> ... My reluctancy before is because a platform design principle disallows that
17:34:02 <Daniel> ... But since we are asking for a different focus cascade would be one way to resolve it
17:34:39 <Daniel> ... As long as we could obfuscate it, I think we would be comfortable
17:34:42 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
17:34:54 <sarah> q+
17:34:55 <Matt_King> q+
17:35:01 <jamesn> Ack sarah
17:35:09 <Daniel> ... You wouldn't be able to distinguish if that was triggered by agentic AI or other AT
17:35:34 <Daniel> Sarah: We've been talking to AT to see if AT could handle it
17:36:04 <Daniel> jcraig: We don't think focus bounce is the right way to do it, we should figure out a way in the user agent to prevent the focus cascade to happen
17:36:14 <Daniel> Sarah: Cool
17:36:44 <jamesn> Ack Matt_King
17:36:47 <jcraig> q+ to discuss explicit click-focus
17:36:59 <Daniel> Matt_King: FYI we justpublished a newrevised experimental example of a list box iwth actions that appear on hover or focus
17:37:16 <Daniel> ... I see that the publication PR got merged before this meeting but I am not seeing the example there
17:37:41 <Daniel> Daniel: Let's giveit an hour or so and if not I'll ask Remi
17:37:56 <Daniel> s/emi/émi/
17:38:09 <jamesn> Ack jc
17:38:09 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss explicit click-focus
17:38:13 <jcraig> ack me
17:39:12 <Daniel> jcraig: Next thing we discussed is that Safari has a default behavior that clicking some elements doesn't result on focusing
17:39:32 <Daniel> ... Part of the reason for this is selection
17:39:58 <Daniel> ... This is mac platform. Any other browsers don't align with this
17:40:46 <Matt_King> q+
17:40:46 <Daniel> ... Synthesizing a clikc that would otherwise move focusc to something which would not otherwise be focusable may give us an opportunity to determine whether or not that functionality should override that of the browsers
17:41:04 <Daniel> ... Authors could then choose
17:41:41 <jamesn> Ack Matt_King
17:42:27 <Daniel> Matt_King: I can understand how that might be helpful, but generally speaking the use cases we have are ones where we want a person using the mouse to have the focus moved but not moved if the action is executed by a screen reader users
17:42:55 <Daniel> jcraig: I am not clear on those particular examples
17:43:09 <Daniel> ... In these edge-caseexamples why wouldn't you want the screen reader behavior to be the same?
17:43:29 <sarah> q+
17:43:37 <Daniel> Matt_King: I wish we could use the example with voiceover on iOS
17:44:09 <Daniel> jcraig: There are advanced flags on iOS
17:44:24 <Daniel> jamesn: Would be good for you all to take this offline for better understanding
17:44:38 <Daniel> Matt_King: +1 for folks to get a stronger understanding about the differences
17:45:30 <twilco> twilco has joined #aria
17:45:43 <Daniel> jcraig: I am having travel determining whatkindd of rule we could put in the browser for acknowleding this
17:45:55 <Daniel> ... For delete you want focus to move elsewhere
17:46:22 <jamesn> Ack sarah
17:46:54 <Daniel> jamesn: Still lot of todos and people need to talk to each other
17:47:11 <Daniel> ... It is a small subset of the meeting who should talk and get to an agreement
17:48:18 <Daniel> Sarah: I'll talk to Jacque about having the browser handling this
17:48:31 <Daniel> jcraig: I think so,
17:48:57 <jamesn> agenda?
17:49:23 <Daniel> Tyler: If AT does it there might be a tming issue when the AT get the notification the author has done something else
17:49:38 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:49:38 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Allow aria-valuetext for use with combobox role https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2417 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:50:17 <Matt_King> q+
17:50:27 <jamesn> Ack Matt_King
17:50:54 <Daniel> Matt_King: It looks like changes were made to valuetext but not to textbox
17:51:15 <Daniel> ... This is still in the combo box section of the spec. We should change this
17:51:26 <Daniel> jamesn: Could you do that?
17:51:49 <Daniel> Matt_King: I could. One question though is how to avoid braking select-only combo boxes written with the current guidance
17:52:07 <Daniel> ... Will we be adding another waay and puting a note or something?
17:52:50 <Daniel> jamesn: I was supposing that the value would remain the same unless the user changes it, then an algorythm would need to be put in place to support it
17:52:55 <aardrian> q+
17:53:20 <Daniel> Matt_King: You wouldn't be able to determine this unless the valuetext contains the visible text or other information. Do we want to do something there to prevent problems?
17:53:22 <jamesn> Ack aardrian
17:53:49 <Daniel> aardrian: Jamie mentioned that too in the issue comment. If you have some ideas it might be worth jumping in.
17:53:59 <Daniel> Matt_King: I could make a PR against this PR
17:54:39 <Daniel> Matt_King: Github Suggestion works for single lines, difficult to do multiline
17:54:48 <Daniel> ... I'll put a comment on the PR describing the proposed changes
17:54:55 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:54:55 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> 9.3 Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution does not consider custom element use cases https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2303 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:55:54 <Daniel> jamesn: Does anyone want to take a look at this?
17:56:00 <Daniel> ... There is other related issue
17:56:04 <Daniel> keithamus: They are different
17:56:49 <Daniel> keithamus: This one I think something Aaron was looking at. ARIA attributes in custom elements that can be forwarded, which is problematic because they might end up being announced
17:57:16 <Daniel> jamesn: If somebody explicit uses elementinternals with role other than none, it would allow those aria attributes but not expose them
17:57:39 <Daniel> ... Is this implemented in Chrome?
17:57:57 <Daniel> keithamus: I remember Aaron working on it, not sure where he got to
17:58:12 <Daniel> keithamus: I can take this on
17:58:41 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:58:41 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Explicit vs implicit roles for elementInternals https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2686 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:58:51 <Daniel> keithamus: We had a mistake in the minutes
17:59:42 <Daniel> ... Not sure that the discussion was entirely clear. I think the conclusion was that element internals should override the attribute, which I think should not be the case, should be other way around
18:00:04 <Daniel> jamesn: Would that override if some explicitly sets the role?
18:00:09 <Daniel> keithamus: It should not
18:00:18 <Daniel> jamesn: But what if they set it up in the child?
18:00:24 <Daniel> keith: Terrible way of doing things
18:01:00 <Daniel> keithamus: There's more to unpack here. Maybe this is related to the other issue and we need more exploration to see if it's only related to none
18:01:07 <Daniel> ... I'll take a look
18:01:16 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:01:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/25-aria-minutes.html Daniel
19:59:16 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria