11:57:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rqtf
11:57:05 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/24-rqtf-irc
11:57:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
11:57:06 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jasonjgw
11:57:32 <jasonjgw> meeting RQTF meeting
11:57:40 <jasonjgw> present+
11:57:43 <jasonjgw> chair: jasonjgw
11:57:52 <jasonjgw> scribe+
11:58:09 <jasonjgw> regrets+ John_Paton
11:58:54 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Accessibility of Machine Learning and Generative AI draft.
12:00:02 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Media accessibility: coordination.
12:00:35 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Game accessibility.
12:00:53 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Miscellaneous topics.
12:13:37 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #rqtf
12:13:47 <jasonjgw> regrets+ stacey
12:53:25 <janina> janina has joined #rqtf
12:53:35 <janina> present+
12:56:56 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #rqtf
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13:01:07 <janina> present+
13:01:10 <janina> scribe+
13:01:29 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
13:01:29 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Accessibility of Machine Learning and Generative AI draft. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:01:50 <scott_h> present+
13:01:55 <janina> janina: No news yet from me
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13:02:00 <matatk> agenda?
13:02:06 <matatk> present+
13:02:08 <janina> jasonjgw: OK, that's the first part, but there's more ...
13:02:35 <janina> jasonjgw: We should integrate discussions of upcoming mtgs, incl TPAC which Matthew has joined to discuss
13:02:47 <matatk> Proposed issue for TPAC: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2026-meetings/issues/68
13:02:52 <janina> jasonjgw: Recalls attending a telecon of Web AI CG ...
13:02:59 <janina> jasonjgw: Useful to coord ...
13:03:49 <janina> matatk: posted APA issue -- though that's general
13:03:51 <matatk> This is the next Web & AI IG meeting, to which we were invited: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/165d6e54-c718-40e9-aa20-3c3d5f783613/20260713T160000/
13:04:15 <janina> matatk: Believe the invite can be extended to RQTF
13:04:43 <janina> matatk: May be a conversaion away from TPAc time, as WebAI will not be physically at TPAC
13:06:36 <matatk> Web & AI IG discussion threads that explicitly mention accessibility: https://github.com/w3c/webai/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20accessibility
13:07:02 <janina> matatk: mtg will be Jul 13 at 1500 UtC
13:07:31 <janina> matatk: a few threads open:
13:09:36 <janina> q?
13:09:57 <janina> jasonjgw: reviews our interact with WebAI ethical doc
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13:12:40 <janina> matatk: Areas of identified interest are listed in WAI issue github
13:14:51 <janina> matatk: ATAG also interested in conversation with us, MA will be joining to coord
13:16:28 <matatk> scribe+
13:17:01 <matatk> janina: AI represents a profound change in human consciousness - like the A-bomb before it. We need to get back to what the W3C context is. AI is creating a lot of content.
13:17:40 <matatk> ... We are interested in ethical considerations. We develop two kinds of deliverables... is there something about AI where a normative standard would be valuable? We would be interested in accessibility considerations in any normative spec.
13:18:10 <matatk> ... the biggest one I know for sure is just a warrant for what ATAG is about to do. We can tell the industry: we know it's going to generate code; it should all be accessible (to the best we can define that).
13:19:18 <matatk> ... Education use cases are very strong ones.
13:19:50 <matatk> ... There are a few areas in best practice (Note) docs that we could work on. I am curious as to what that list is, about where accessibility really matters in specs.
13:20:24 <janina> q?
13:21:27 <janina> matatk: Interesting issue
13:21:33 <matatk> My team found this issue this morning: https://github.com/anthropics/claude-code/issues/56079
13:22:32 <janina> matatk: presumably a function of the content it trained on that it's biased against accessible code
13:23:08 <janina> matatk: Asks nature of our AI doc? AUR or high level principles?
13:23:34 <janina> matatk: If the latter how do we get more views? Pub in their space?
13:24:22 <janina> matatk: Other approach is to consider from their perspective -- asking these questions and learning their view
13:24:43 <janina> matatk: Notes we share Roy as Staff Contact with them
13:25:28 <janina> jasonjgw: Agree approach MA gives is correct
13:25:56 <janina> jasonjgw: our doc is a kind of issues paper -- the central challenges and issues between web a11y and AI
13:26:15 <janina> q?
13:26:44 <janina> present+ Josh
13:27:17 <janina> josh: huge subject -- not inherently good or evil, but we should set expectations of what "good" looks like
13:27:55 <janina> joshMost people using AI won't have an understanding of a11y and what concerns there might be
13:28:10 <matatk> s/joshMost/josh: Most/
13:28:58 <matatk> janina: Agree mostly with Josh. I would give it a slightly different spin in that it's for informaing future W3C accessibility work. We want to name the stuff that's coming at us, and frame it in a way that gives us a basis, with some group agreement, as to how to think about it and move forward with it.
13:29:09 <matatk> ... I wouldn't rule out an AUR, though this initially is not that.
13:29:35 <matatk> ... If a group forms to talk about how Agentic AI could make tailored solutions, that must have a strong accessibility considerations.
13:30:32 <matatk> ... Thinking like Adapt TF's work... instead of being declarative, we could have tailored solutions for the user. Could generate more potent AT than we have had to date. That's where we'd need an AUR. (Here's what people who are blind, or deaf, or ... would need to ensure it's accessible.)
13:30:45 <matatk> ... We're building stuff for people and we're leaving people out.
13:31:23 <matatk> josh: Agree. We don't want these systems creating token accessibility efforts that are functionally useless.
13:31:35 <matatk> janina: Would like to let them know on the 13th that this is where our thinking is going.
13:31:51 <matatk> ... about how to inform W3C thinking in different groups/levels
13:32:18 <janina> josh: Asks how this relates to TAG generated docs ...
13:32:32 <janina> matatk: Three docs so far ...
13:32:47 <janina> matatk: web platform design principles
13:33:03 <janina> matatk: Ethical Principles
13:33:20 <janina> matatk: This one endorsed by U.N.
13:33:38 <janina> matatk: Privacy Principles --
13:34:13 <janina> matatk: Then Web ML WG has been working on Ethical Principles -- and that's where we commented
13:34:26 <janina> matatk: Concept of "burden shifting" came up there
13:35:30 <janina> matatk: Addresses various concerns incl content ml trained on
13:36:11 <janina> matatk: Think we have limited time and we're just one item on the agenda on the 13th
13:36:28 <janina> matatk: Offers to synthesize for best effect
13:36:54 <janina> matatk: Phps Roy can add RQTF to mtg Calendar
13:36:57 <janina> q?
13:37:22 <janina> jasonjgw: Agree. Approach appropriately pragmatic!
13:37:30 <janina> jasonjgw: Happy to respond on drafts
13:39:22 <janina> jasonjgw: Interesting scope q in ML identifying security bugs -- some extant for decades
13:39:31 <janina> jasonjgw: Phps an approach that identifies a11y?
13:39:48 <janina> q?
13:39:49 <matatk> Re authoring tools, here is our TPAC session proposal: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2026-meetings/issues/81
13:39:52 <matatk> q+
13:41:17 <matatk> janina: I like your challenge about using AI to identify accessibility issues. I think this should be important to WCAG 3...
13:41:26 <matatk> josh: Will there be an ATAG 3?
13:41:30 <matatk> janina: Looks like it!
13:41:47 <matatk> ... Jutte is still involved, which is great.
13:42:50 <matatk> josh: The point about AI being biased against making accessible content - good point, how can we expect it to make it accessible based on what we've seen. (ref matatk re training data, etc)
13:42:57 <matatk> janina: agree
13:43:11 <matatk> jasonjgw: Yes, it will reproduce the patterns from the large corpus it's been given
13:43:29 <matatk> ... Not aware there's an easy solution for this problem, as it will inevitably reflect the training data.
13:43:54 <matatk> ... A large proportion of what's out there will have accessibility issues. Do they have ways to tune models or overcome issues?
13:44:12 <matatk> janina: What about 'take the data you're trained on and evaluate it according to WCAG 2'
13:44:21 <matatk> jasonjgw: Given my understanding of neural networks, that's a hard problem.
13:44:46 <matatk> ... need an ML expert to say what strategies are available to mitigate those issues.
13:44:52 <matatk> janina: Excellent reason for W3C to be in this space.
13:45:34 <matatk> jasonjgw: There are some ways to tune the output but I'm not sure to what extent this is possible.
13:45:52 <matatk> ack me
13:46:11 <janina> matatk: Disclaims ML expertise, but has one on staff!
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13:55:36 <jasonjgw> zakim, end meeting
13:55:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jasonjgw, janina, scott_h, matatk, Josh
13:55:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:55:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/24-rqtf-minutes.html Zakim
13:55:46 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jasonjgw; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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