13:50:36 RRSAgent has joined #ixml 13:50:40 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/23-ixml-irc 13:50:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:50:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/23-ixml-minutes.html norm 13:50:49 rrsagent, set logs world visible 13:50:57 Meeting: Invisible XML Community Group 13:50:57 Date: 23 June 2026 13:50:57 Chair: Steven 13:50:59 Scribe: Norm 13:51:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:51:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/23-ixml-minutes.html norm 13:55:23 Steven has joined #ixml 13:56:01 john has joined #ixml 13:59:48 Present: Norm, Steven, John, David, Bethan, Alan 14:00:20 Topic: Accept the minutes of the previous meeting 14:00:20 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/05/26-ixml-minutes.html 14:01:10 Accepted.' 14:01:17 Topic: Review of open actions 14:01:28 2024-03-05-c: SP to prepare pull request to resolve issue #139 (new grammars, new README) 14:01:39 Steven: Do I have to recheckout everything. 14:02:12 Norm: Re-clone it and fork it. 14:02:30 2026-03-03-b: Bethan to try making the title screen 14:02:30 Continues 14:02:45 2026-04-14-a: Norm to nudge people who haven't supplied slides yet. 14:02:45 Completed. 14:04:32 2026-04-14-b: Bethan: write discussion document on ambiguity 14:05:05 Bethan: Would like to pause that until after Amsterdam, assuming my submission is accepted. 14:05:18 Steven: We can have the discussion when the document is ready. 14:05:28 Bethan: We wanted to move some issues into an umbrella on ambiguity. 14:05:40 Norm: I think some things to keep us going would be good. 14:05:48 2026-05-12-a: Everyone send Codeberg login IDs to Norm 14:05:48 Completed. 14:05:53 2026-05-12-b: Norm to send pointers to RELAX NG redefines 14:05:53 Completed. 14:06:09 Topic: Status reports 14:07:24 Norm: I implemented a feature to detect when all ambiguous parses produce the same serialization. 14:08:18 John: How? 14:08:32 Norm: It detects suppressed nonterminals and renamed nonterminals. 14:08:56 Steven: I'm going to the student results tomorrow; I've been using their implementation. It's implemented round-trippping, modularization, and the "not" construct. 14:09:09 ... Looks good and it's nice and fast. 14:09:20 ... I will, with their permission tomorrow, send around the report. 14:09:34 ... I'm encouraging them to write some sort of presentation at Declarative Amsterdam. 14:09:46 John: How close to the goal of passing all the tests did they get? 14:10:00 Steven: I'll be able to tell you tomorrow! 14:10:38 Steven: On my own implementation, I'm experimenting with error messages for what happens if the document doesn't parse properly. 14:10:59 ... I'm trying to do better than just printing the set of allowed characters. 14:11:35 ... At the point where it fails, I collect all unfinished tasks and serialize the tree in a different way and then after the serialization, report the characters that were expected at that point. 14:11:42 ... At the moment, I'm happy with the direction. 14:12:14 ... I don't necessarily go all the way from the top of the tree, I work from a section of the tree. And I note that there are lots of similarities at the beginning. Maybe that can be cleaned up and made more understandable. 14:12:50 John: The way I do that is, once you've failed, you have a whole set of pending results. You know exactly what the expectation was and where it came from. So you can roll that back. 14:13:07 Steven: The path I take is the same as serialization, just in a different way. 14:13:39 Topic: User group meeting 14:14:19 Bethan: Just what I said on the list really; something to fill the every-other-week slot and chatting with folks at XML Prague suggested that something informal would be ideal. 14:14:47 ... My plan is to have a sort of loose agenda; I have a couple of folks who say they'd like to discuss things. But I think it's also important that there's some free time. 14:15:25 Norm: That kind of format really works for the XProc User Group meeting. 14:15:38 Bethan: I've got a couple of things; I'll send out an agenda the day before and we'll see how it goes. 14:16:19 General consensus: a casual meeting would be really good. 14:16:29 Topic: Colocating 2nd International iXML Symposium 14:16:45 Steven: XML Prague asked the question: would anyone be interested in an XML Prague in February next year. 14:17:24 ... I filled in the questionairre but I thought that we could also be a possibility to have the symposium there. 14:18:08 ... Jirka says he should know if it's going to happen by September. 14:18:13 ... I said we'd talk about it today. 14:18:29 John: I think the nice thing about the one we did is that it was very informal and lightweight and only virtual. 14:18:47 ... If it runs with the Prague thing, it becomes hybrid and that's a bit more awkward. 14:19:25 David: XML Prague has never been hybrid friendly; it's scheduled on Prague time so those who are far away have trouble. 14:19:41 ... That's not the case for conferences like Balisage that tries to make a hybrid event time-friendly. 14:20:15 Steven: This is not fixed; we're certainly able to change it. I'm thinking of this as a separate event that just happens to be colocated with Prague. 14:20:38 John: It seems like it would be difficult to schedule. 14:22:16 Norm: I'd consider it, but I'm very worried about making remote participants feel unwelcome or less welcome. 14:22:50 Some discussion of a face-to-face meeting of the iXML Community Group at Prague. 14:23:55 Steven: Next topic? 14:24:10 Steven: We have some implementations with "not" so there's room for testing some of these things. 14:24:35 Norm: So we have two implementations? 14:24:45 John: Mine is more restricted; it's the subtraction version. 14:25:01 Norm: I'd like to see some tests. 14:25:18 Steven: I've created a directory in my test suite for negations; once I've got the final version, I'll publish them. 14:25:31 Steven: Which semantics do you have for subtraction? 14:25:50 John: A - B suceeds if A fails and B does not succeed at the same time. 14:25:56 s/suceeds/succeeds/ 14:26:06 John: It's effectively a set subtraction. 14:26:22 John: It works on terms or nonterminals. 14:26:57 ... It's like an "or" except that when the first one succeeds, I check if the second one has succeeded at the same point. It passes only if the second has failed. 14:27:08 John: So I can match "iff" and not "if" or "iffa". 14:27:40 ... The best example is for the XPath grammar where there's a set of keywords that can't be the names of functions. 14:27:49 Some discussion of whether this is lookahead or something else. 14:28:40 Bethan: I think it's a form of lookahead. 14:29:17 ... My concern is that a lot of these constructs provide hacky ways to do "something else" and it would be cleaner to provide "something else" properly. For example, proper lookahead. 14:29:34 ... Would we be better of just implementing lookahead? 14:29:57 John: I'm strictly using an Earley parser and nothing else; so it's about the fact that these are matched in parallel. 14:30:18 Steven: Sounds like an action item to start collecting some grammars using these features. 14:30:37 Norm: And from that we can work out if there's a more general thing. 14:31:01 ACTION: Steven (and others) to collect examples of the disambiguation construction. 14:32:07 Steven: I propose we look closely at modularization next time. 14:32:43 Topic: Next meeting 14:33:03 7 July at 15:00 BST 14:33:12 Steven: We should also discuss holiday periods. 14:33:34 ACTION: Norm to put vacation planning on the agenda for next time. 14:33:54 Adjourned. 14:38:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:38:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/23-ixml-minutes.html norm