13:58:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lws
13:58:18 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/22-lws-irc
13:58:49 <acoburn> zakim, start meeting
13:58:49 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:58:51 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), acoburn
13:58:56 <acoburn> meeting: Linked Web Storage WG
13:59:00 <acoburn> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a19ab7dc-1753-433d-bac5-64e3ad8c0a43/20260622T100000/#agenda
13:59:00 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:59:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Introduction & Announcements
13:59:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Test suite update
13:59:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Use Cases & Requirements document
13:59:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Auxiliary Resources: -> PR#165 https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/165  and -> PR#167 https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/165
13:59:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Threat Model -> Issue#177 https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/177
13:59:16 <acoburn> rrsagent, make minutes
13:59:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/22-lws-minutes.html acoburn
13:59:36 <eBremer> eBremer has joined #lws
13:59:50 <acoburn> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/06/15-lws-minutes.html
14:00:02 <acoburn> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/06/29-lws-minutes.html
14:00:08 <acoburn> rrsagent, make minutes
14:00:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/22-lws-minutes.html acoburn
14:00:15 <acoburn> present+
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14:00:49 <gibsonf1> present+
14:01:04 <ericP> ericP has joined #lws
14:01:09 <ericP> present+
14:01:34 <elf-pavlik> elf-pavlik has joined #lws
14:01:51 <elf-pavlik> present+
14:02:11 <termontwouter> termontwouter has joined #lws
14:02:29 <acoburn> chair: ericP
14:03:03 <eBremer> present+
14:03:25 <ryey> ryey has joined #lws
14:04:58 <jeremycaine> jeremycaine has joined #lws
14:05:02 <jeremycaine> present+
14:05:05 <jeremycaine> scribe+
14:05:14 <ericP> agenda?
14:05:34 <ericP> zakim, next agendum
14:05:34 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introduction & Announcements -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:05:40 <jeswr> jeswr has joined #lws
14:06:03 <jeremycaine> ericP: intro and announce?
14:06:09 <acoburn> present+ TallTed
14:06:16 <termontwouter> present+
14:06:19 <ericP> zakim, next agendum
14:06:19 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, ericP
14:06:20 <jeremycaine> ... any new people? no
14:06:53 <ericP> [no announcements]
14:06:55 <ericP> zakim, next agendum
14:06:55 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Test suite update -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:07:40 <ericP> [deferred]
14:07:42 <ericP> zakim, next agendum
14:07:42 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, ericP
14:07:59 <ericP> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:07:59 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Use Cases & Requirements document -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:08:43 <jeremycaine> acoburn: lots of work done on UC and req doc about 18mo aho
14:09:02 <jeremycaine> ... but still needs lots of work e.g UC need to be consistently organised
14:09:14 <jeremycaine> ... aligned with what LWS is trying to achieve
14:09:39 <jeremycaine> ... what we have has gone beyond the initial scope being planned to be produced
14:09:49 <elf-pavlik> q+ to connect it to tracking interest in implementing #171
14:10:13 <ericP> ack next
14:10:14 <jeremycaine> ... who wants to help editing / uplifting the docs
14:10:15 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to connect it to tracking interest in implementing #171
14:10:29 <jeswr> jeswr has joined #lws
14:11:13 <jeremycaine> elf-pavlik: person proposing a use case should write into the do
14:11:27 <jeswr> q+ Happy to assist on use case effort, want to get a sense of whether group is ok with having an LLM pipeline there which is what I having going with personal projects now
14:11:28 <acoburn> q+
14:11:48 <pchampin> present+
14:11:58 <jeremycaine> q+ where is the uc doc
14:12:25 <jeswr> Use case repo: https://github.com/w3c/lws-ucs
14:12:32 <jeremycaine> elf-pavlik: UC proposal does not need to be implemented
14:12:34 <jeremycaine> q-
14:12:44 <jeswr> Use case spec doc: https://w3c.github.io/lws-ucs/spec/
14:13:40 <acoburn> q?
14:13:50 <jeremycaine> TallTed: UC proposer can be a consultant to the implementor
14:14:15 <ericP> ack next
14:14:15 <Zakim> Happy, you wanted to assist on use case effort, want to get a sense of whether group is ok with having an LLM pipeline there which is what I having going with personal projects now
14:14:49 <jeremycaine> jeswr: happy to help out; has automated pipelines
14:14:50 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat has joined #lws
14:15:17 <jeremycaine> ... also using code gen LWS apps
14:15:31 <jeremycaine> ... similar to solid code work
14:15:34 <jeremycaine> q+
14:15:36 <ericP> q+ to ack if anyone object to claude authoring
14:15:39 <ericP> ack next
14:15:52 <bigbluehat> present+
14:16:05 <jeremycaine> acoburn: UC > requirements > implementation
14:16:26 <jeremycaine> ... current requirements have multiple upstream UCs
14:16:53 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #lws
14:16:59 <jeremycaine> ... should not assume UC proposer has to implement
14:17:13 <ericP> ack next
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14:17:26 <elf-pavlik> scribe+
14:17:44 <elf-pavlik> jeremycaine: i wanted to understand a little bit more as someone who chooses to implement use case
14:18:06 <elf-pavlik> ... are they going to have to implement a reference implementation and build app to implement use case?
14:18:13 <elf-pavlik> ... what is the general process
14:18:33 <elf-pavlik> ericP: is it regarding elf-pavlik proposal to connect impl to use cases?
14:18:55 <ericP> ack next
14:18:56 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ack if anyone object to claude authoring
14:19:06 <elf-pavlik> jeremycaine: is the goal to implement reference, past the tests and app to demonstrate the use case?
14:19:31 <elf-pavlik> ericP: use case will have some requirements and they may need to be included in the test suite
14:19:51 <elf-pavlik> ... does anyone object to use llm to work on use cases, as long as human baby sit it?
14:20:02 <acoburn> q+ to say that we are ultimately responsible for the content
14:20:03 <jeremycaine> scribe+
14:20:04 <elf-pavlik> scribe-
14:20:07 <TallTed> present+
14:20:15 <TallTed> LLMs must be treated as junior coders, at best. *heavy* code review.
14:20:34 <eBremer> +1 TallTed
14:20:34 <acoburn> q?
14:20:36 <jeremycaine> q+
14:21:02 <ericP> ack next
14:21:03 <Zakim> acoburn, you wanted to say that we are ultimately responsible for the content
14:21:05 <ericP> ack next
14:21:09 <elf-pavlik> scribe+
14:21:28 <elf-pavlik> jeremycaine: i don't have any objections to agentic coding, i think it can do more senior coding
14:21:50 <elf-pavlik> ... what is missing, you need to be very clear on the test suite for the use case, to prove implementation
14:21:59 <elf-pavlik> ... we don't have it in use case document
14:22:17 <elf-pavlik> ericP: we don't have anything in document to anticipate agentic coding
14:22:18 <acoburn> q+ to re-center discussion
14:22:26 <ericP> ack next
14:22:27 <Zakim> acoburn, you wanted to re-center discussion
14:22:33 <elf-pavlik> jeremycaine: we need a test, no matter if we vibe code it or write it ourselves
14:22:38 <elf-pavlik> scribe-
14:23:02 <elf-pavlik> scribe+
14:23:06 <jeremycaine> jeremycaine has joined #lws
14:23:11 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: this is specific about helping out with ucs document
14:23:11 <jeremycaine> present+
14:23:12 <gibsonf1> gibsonf1 has joined #lws
14:23:14 <jeremycaine> scribe+
14:23:18 <elf-pavlik> scribe-
14:23:18 <gibsonf1> q+ to ask that no vibe coding is ever used for making tests
14:23:22 <ericP> ack next
14:23:23 <Zakim> gibsonf, you wanted to ask that no vibe coding is ever used for making tests
14:23:53 <ericP> ack next
14:23:55 <jeremycaine> gibsonf1: vote for vibe coding - should not be used for writing tests
14:24:05 <ericP> zakim, next agendum
14:24:05 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Test suite update -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:24:17 <ericP> zakim, take up agendum 4
14:24:17 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Auxiliary Resources: -> PR#165 https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/165  and -> PR#167 https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/165 -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:24:46 <jeremycaine> ericP: who can summarise 165 anf 167
14:25:29 <jeremycaine> acoburn: pchampin and termontwouter are present
14:25:48 <acoburn> rrsagent, make minutes
14:25:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/22-lws-minutes.html acoburn
14:26:04 <acoburn> s/anf/and/
14:26:14 <gibsonf1> gibsonf1 has joined #lws
14:26:36 <jeremycaine> termontwouter: 165 - redefines the basis of what is the content stored on the server
14:26:41 <jeremycaine> ... conceptually
14:26:57 <jeremycaine> ... defines it in terms of representation
14:27:23 <jeremycaine> ... metadata by client or server are representation of the same data
14:28:04 <jeremycaine> pchampin: 167 - don't like metdata or linkedsets of primary data resource
14:28:30 <jeremycaine> ... in order to get it, you can do media request
14:28:51 <jeremycaine> ... linked set aux resource contains things that could evolve
14:29:21 <jeremycaine> ... primary resource could have arbitary media types
14:29:25 <elf-pavlik> q+ to suggest focusing on specific scenarios, like one brought up by PAC about client managed `application/linkset`
14:29:59 <jeremycaine> ... 167: want to able to merge them in my implementation -  aux res might be same as primary res
14:30:07 <jeremycaine> ... still discovered by a link header
14:30:49 <jeremycaine> eBremer: problems aounrd application/linkset
14:31:00 <termontwouter> q+
14:31:15 <jeremycaine> ... thinking - using profile parameter
14:31:18 <acoburn> s/aounrd/around/
14:31:22 <pchampin> q+ to discuss how "application/linkset" is blocked by 165
14:31:26 <ericP> ack next
14:31:27 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to suggest focusing on specific scenarios, like one brought up by PAC about client managed `application/linkset`
14:32:41 <jeremycaine> elf-pavlik: need to some specific scenario examples to further discussion
14:32:56 <acoburn> q+ to talk about the core requirements we are trying to address
14:33:24 <jeremycaine> ericP: there is a PR for test content
14:33:28 <ericP> ack next
14:34:07 <jeremycaine> termontwouter: profile parameter in content neg could work
14:34:15 <elf-pavlik> do we have documented somewhere the issue with profile param and cors?
14:34:28 <ericP> ack next
14:34:29 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to discuss how "application/linkset" is blocked by 165
14:34:36 <jeremycaine> ... if we don't find compromise; happy to let 165 go and go for 167
14:35:11 <jeremycaine> pchampin: problem with 165 is content neg is sufficient to switch to partially server maanged
14:35:38 <termontwouter> q+
14:35:40 <jeremycaine> ... application/linkset is partially client managed
14:36:14 <jeremycaine> ... should not force all implementations to merge
14:36:26 <elf-pavlik> q+ to ask about proactive vs. reactive conneg and various examples of client interactions
14:36:40 <jeremycaine> ... 165 is ok if it was clear content neg was not the single mechanism
14:38:03 <ericP> ack next
14:38:04 <Zakim> acoburn, you wanted to talk about the core requirements we are trying to address
14:38:16 <termontwouter> q-
14:38:17 <jeremycaine> ericP: PRs are basically the same rE: application/linkset goal
14:38:48 <jeremycaine> acoburn: test what we are trying to accommodate? clients can find and modfy linked headers
14:39:10 <jeremycaine> ... in solid these headers are important - server managed, fixed at creation time
14:39:46 <jeremycaine> ... linkset - clients need to be able to discover and modify for a given resource
14:40:07 <ericP> ack next
14:40:08 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to ask about proactive vs. reactive conneg and various examples of client interactions
14:40:13 <jeremycaine> ... is that what we want?
14:40:35 <jeremycaine> elf-pavlik: need more exmaples both client and server managed
14:40:39 <elf-pavlik> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/39#issuecomment-3975949211
14:40:40 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/39 -> CLOSED Issue 39 Cool URIs for the Semantic Web: 303 URIs forwarding to Different Documents (by elf-pavlik)
14:41:08 <jeremycaine> ... server managed client was big topic in solid
14:41:29 <pchampin> q+ to respond to acoburn
14:42:00 <jeremycaine> ... what will be the must and should?
14:42:57 <termontwouter> q+
14:43:10 <jeremycaine> ... focus on these in the normative text
14:43:14 <ericP> ack next
14:43:15 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to respond to acoburn
14:43:46 <jeremycaine> pchampin: respond to acoburn - agree with what linkedset was introduced for
14:44:56 <jeremycaine> ... the PRs (165, 167) - response to fred's use case - sometimes metadata and primary resource could be same
14:45:16 <jeremycaine> ... aux res lifetime is linked to lifetime of primary resource
14:45:21 <gibsonf1> +1 on 167 change
14:46:18 <jeremycaine> ... need to avoid undesirabel content neg
14:46:20 <ericP> agenda?
14:46:49 <ericP> ack next
14:48:02 <jeremycaine> termontwouter: second pchampin - both solve fred's problem; could write out eBremer profile idea for next week discussion
14:48:24 <pchampin> I think the profile-based negotation can be added regardless to both PRs
14:48:58 <jeremycaine> ... if you add few sentences to 165 then it solves pchampin issue
14:49:26 <jeremycaine> eBremer: propose accept 167, and then have an addendum (updated 165)
14:49:37 <ericP> PROPOSED: merge PR#167
14:49:37 <gb> Issue 167 not found
14:50:23 <TallTed> gb, status?
14:50:23 <gb> TallTed, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are off, full issues are printed 10 at a time, commands are ignored from RRSAgent, agendabot, m2gbot and Zakim; and the repositories are https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol https://github.com/w3c/lws-ucs
14:50:26 <ericP> PROPOSED: merge https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/165
14:50:27 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/165 -> Pull Request 165 Define aux & meta in terms of representations (by termontwouter)
14:50:30 <gibsonf1> +1
14:50:37 <eBremer> +1
14:50:40 <termontwouter> +1
14:50:40 <jeremycaine> +1
14:50:41 <pchampin> +1
14:50:42 <ericP> +1
14:50:43 <elf-pavlik> +1
14:50:44 <acoburn> -1
14:50:46 <TallTed> +0
14:50:49 <gibsonf1> Hold on!
14:50:54 <gibsonf1> I thought this was 167?
14:51:06 <gibsonf1> also - remove vote
14:51:22 <gibsonf1> -1
14:51:26 <ericP> PROPOSED: merge https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/167
14:51:27 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/167 -> Pull Request 167 auxiliary resource as a role (by pchampin)
14:51:30 <jeremycaine> cancel that vote - error
14:51:31 <gibsonf1> +1
14:51:32 <eBremer> +1
14:51:34 <pchampin> +1
14:51:35 <jeremycaine> +1
14:51:37 <acoburn> +1
14:51:37 <termontwouter> Thanks for noticing!
14:51:38 <termontwouter> +1
14:51:39 <elf-pavlik> +1
14:51:43 <TallTed> +0
14:51:50 <ryey> +1
14:51:57 <ericP> APPROVED: merge https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/167
14:52:08 <pchampin> q+ to explain the "issue not found error", for future reference (meta)
14:53:03 <acoburn> ack next
14:53:04 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to explain the "issue not found error", for future reference (meta)
14:53:08 <jeremycaine> pchampin: gb bot can manage several repos; do a PR #167 i.e. with space - use the first repo e.g. LWS
14:53:09 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/167 -> Pull Request 167 auxiliary resource as a role (by pchampin)
14:53:13 <ericP> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:53:13 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Threat Model -> Issue#177 https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/177 -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:53:46 <jeremycaine> elf-pavlik: need a diagram
14:54:02 <jeremycaine> ... create a PR for a diagram
14:54:16 <jeremycaine> ... use same visual language from threat modelling
14:54:26 <ryey> sure!
14:54:45 <jeremycaine> ... ryey to help
14:55:01 <ryey> q+
14:55:01 <ericP> q?
14:55:11 <ericP> ack next
14:55:31 <jeremycaine> ryey: do we use C4?
14:55:49 <jeremycaine> elf-pavlik: we can figure it out
14:55:58 <elf-pavlik> s/C4/likec4/
14:56:09 <ryey> present+
14:56:13 <elf-pavlik> https://likec4.dev/
14:56:24 <jeremycaine> acoburn: thanks to those reducing issues on friday
14:56:31 <jeremycaine> ... will keep on meeting
14:56:41 <jeremycaine> q+ link to calendar invite?
14:56:53 <ericP> ack next
14:56:54 <Zakim> link, you wanted to calendar invite?
14:57:09 <acoburn> Issue triage meeting: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/41133143-8a1f-4f4a-bf69-44daec340f79/
14:57:13 <jeremycaine> q-
14:57:29 <ericP> draft minutes
14:57:38 <acoburn> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/22-lws-minutes.html acoburn
14:57:46 <ericP> s/draft minutes//
14:57:46 <jeremycaine> move to close meeting
14:58:45 <TallTed> Zakim, end meeting
14:58:46 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TallTed, acoburn, eBremer, elf-pavlik, termontwouter, Luke, jeremycaine, gibsonf, bigbluehat, ryey, jeswr, ericP, langsamu, AZ, laurens, m,
14:58:49 <Zakim> ... pchampin
14:58:49 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:58:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/22-lws-minutes.html Zakim
14:58:56 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:58:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #lws
14:59:14 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
14:59:14 <RRSAgent> I see no action items