12:48:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:48:05 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/17-matf-irc
12:48:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:48:06 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Tanya
12:48:22 <Tanya> Zakim, this is MATF 17 June 2026
12:48:22 <Zakim> got it, Tanya
12:48:37 <Tanya> Meeting: MATF 17 June 2026
12:48:53 <Tanya> chair+
12:49:34 <Tanya> agenda+ TPAC 2026: MATF session proposal and planning
12:49:49 <Tanya> agenda+ Normative text update
12:50:06 <Tanya> agenda+ Group Note as supporting documentation
12:50:28 <Tanya> agenda+ Definitions
12:50:40 <Tanya> agenda+ Success Criterion 2.5.8 - Target Size (Minimum)
12:50:50 <Tanya> agenda+ Success Criterion 2.5.3 - Label in Name
12:51:03 <Tanya> zakim, agenda?
12:51:03 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
12:51:04 <Zakim> 1. TPAC 2026: MATF session proposal and planning [from Tanya]
12:51:04 <Zakim> 2. Normative text update [from Tanya]
12:51:04 <Zakim> 3. Group Note as supporting documentation [from Tanya]
12:51:04 <Zakim> 4. Definitions [from Tanya]
12:51:04 <Zakim> 5. Success Criterion 2.5.8 - Target Size (Minimum) [from Tanya]
12:51:04 <Zakim> 6. Success Criterion 2.5.3 - Label in Name [from Tanya]
12:54:50 <Tanya> regrets+ <Joe>
12:55:09 <Tanya> rrsagent, make minutes
12:55:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/17-matf-minutes.html Tanya
12:56:04 <Tanya> move to next agendum
12:56:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- TPAC 2026: MATF session proposal and planning -- taken up [from Tanya]
12:56:12 <Tanya> rrsagent, make minutes
12:56:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/17-matf-minutes.html Tanya
13:01:12 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
13:01:42 <shoobe01> shoobe01 has joined #matf
13:01:58 <quintinb> scribe: quintinb
13:02:45 <RobW> RobW has joined #matf
13:02:48 <RobW> present+
13:03:14 <quintinb> present+
13:04:36 <shoobe01> present+
13:06:38 <Tanya> https://github.com/w3c/tpac2026-meetings/issues/47
13:07:11 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #matf
13:08:01 <Detlev> present+
13:08:34 <Detlev> q+
13:08:59 <quintinb> Detlev do you have a link to the spreadsheet
13:09:11 <Tanya> ack <detlev>
13:11:01 <quintinb> Detlev what time?
13:11:16 <shoobe01> I may have promised to do something and forgot, but do usually document most everything and just checked, do not have e.g. a link to a spreadsheet.
13:11:22 <quintinb> Thursday, 09:00 - 10:30
13:11:22 <quintinb> Thursday, 11:00 - 12:30
13:11:32 <quintinb> (Preliminary times)
13:11:46 <Tanya> move to next agendum
13:11:46 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Tanya
13:12:23 <Tanya> ack detlev
13:12:39 <quintinb> q?
13:12:40 <Tanya> move to next agendum
13:12:40 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Normative text update -- taken up [from Tanya]
13:13:52 <Tanya> move to next agendum
13:13:52 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Group Note as supporting documentation -- taken up [from Tanya]
13:14:47 <shoobe01> q+
13:14:55 <Tanya> https://www.w3.org/policies/process/#note-track
13:15:56 <Tanya> https://www.w3.org/TR/web-user-agents/
13:16:04 <quintinb> ack shoobe01
13:16:09 <quintinb> q?
13:17:17 <quintinb> shoobe01 the one we drafted and renewed recommened sizes - even though it's not normative how do publish scaling in addition to the other documentation and background since it's a lot of information
13:17:22 <quintinb> q-
13:17:27 <quintinb> ack shoobe01
13:17:30 <quintinb> q?
13:18:28 <quintinb> shoobe01 no one has read it except JJ
13:18:40 <quintinb> ack shoobe01
13:18:43 <quintinb> q?
13:19:26 <quintinb> q-
13:19:52 <quintinb> lol I though ack would dequeue - no docs here on how to https://github.com/w3c/matf/wiki/IRC-Cheatsheet
13:20:59 <quintinb> q- shoobe
13:21:06 <quintinb> got it
13:21:20 <Tanya> move to next agendum
13:21:20 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Definitions -- taken up [from Tanya]
13:29:46 <quintinb> shoobe01 I'm clear what I want from this - it's just the changes
13:30:19 <Detlev> q+
13:30:22 <quintinb> Application is what we want to add - it's about how it's grouped - software program is the term we had found already that is fairly close
13:31:02 <quintinb> shoobe01 I'd need to look at the existing terms for software program to try apply it - WCAG2ICT
13:31:49 <quintinb> shoobe01 we're seeing where we want to expand
13:32:41 <quintinb> shoobe01 what's the mismatch
13:32:59 <shoobe01> "For native content this is the native "mobile app" package file (software program, or set of software programs) (and native apps also often include webviews...)."
13:34:01 <RobW> q+
13:34:50 <quintinb> q?
13:35:40 <quintinb> We were trying to make everything run parallel to the user agent - it's not supposed to have different responsibilities - each layer has a responsibility
13:35:46 <quintinb> ack Detlev
13:38:23 <shoobe01> q+
13:38:35 <quintinb> Detlev one aspect to keep in mind is that requirements can be met by the user agent - the question about the diagram is the distinction between os and platform - I assumed cross platform generated apps from an IDE - it shouldn't matter how it was developed because from the point of view of the user it's running on their device. I am not sure
13:38:35 <quintinb> whether this layer framework is easy to understand.
13:38:58 <quintinb> ack RobW
13:42:21 <quintinb> Detlev wanted to know the difference between OS + FWK
13:43:06 <Detlev> q+
13:43:23 <quintinb> RobW my purpose was for internal, but there is some value for the draft, but it seems to get more complex as we go on, it seems to drift away from us. User agent was separate is that user agents are solo systems that fetches, process and provides a means of interation with content. But it can be different for apps - I wanted it separate because
13:43:23 <quintinb> native applications - the author of the mobile application can make their own user agent. in most cases the UA is not in the pervue of the developer, depending on scope of influence. The framework question I don't fully remember. Frameworks vary on who makes it. JJ did a lot of research on how the different frameworks and how they work. Frameworks
13:43:23 <quintinb> could output native views or web cvontent or just draw on a canvas - it depends on the framework
13:43:31 <quintinb> q?
13:45:32 <quintinb> ack shoobe01
13:47:29 <quintinb> shoobe01 the diagram is fighting between technology and responsibility - a switch of tech at the bottom because it's provided by the platform - we're trying to make a responsibility model not a tech model. Maybe there's too many layers - what if we toss application layer? I renamed web to ua -
13:47:36 <quintinb> ack Detlev
13:47:39 <RobW> q+
13:47:57 <quintinb> @ack shoobe
13:48:04 <quintinb> ack shoobe
13:49:29 <quintinb> Detlev it's a user concern - aren't we misxing up things - UA native and cross platform on the same level. Is it not enough to have native - why do we need cross platform? Is it run time considerations or run time?
13:49:37 <quintinb> ack RobW
13:51:53 <quintinb> RobW my intention was to show spheres of responsibility. users won't care about the framework. My purpose is to show where the developer is held responsible and what they can influence. If you are using swiftui and jetpack compose correctly - we're saying you're using 1st party stuff and then it's a platform issue. We don't want to give you an out
13:51:53 <quintinb> if you pick a cross platform that has no a11y considerations. That's why the layers are important - you can't blame the framework
13:55:49 <Detlev> q+
13:55:58 <quintinb> ack Detlev
13:57:15 <quintinb> Detlev WCAG2ICT makes it clear webviews are part of the context - evaluted as native. The question is if we call those user agents - would people be able to argue that they don't handle focus properly or font scaling because of this?
13:57:53 <shoobe01> q+
13:58:09 <quintinb> ack shoobe01
13:58:20 <quintinb> ack shoobe
13:59:06 <quintinb> shoobe platform = user agent I'm not tracking that - whther it's hybrid or native we need to discuss to explain it
13:59:19 <quintinb> I hasve a hard stop on the hour, sorry
14:00:11 <quintinb> I have to leave - bye bye!
14:00:22 <Detlev> bye!
14:01:25 <RobW> Apologies for next week
14:08:12 <Tanya> Zakim, list participants
14:08:12 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been RobW, quintinb, shoobe, Detlev
14:08:35 <Tanya> rrsagent, make minutes
14:08:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/17-matf-minutes.html Tanya
14:09:24 <Tanya> rrsagent, bye
14:09:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items