17:00:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/11-aria-irc
17:00:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:21 <lola> lola has joined #aria
17:00:21 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:00:45 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:00:54 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:00:54 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:55 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/690d057f-db6d-4169-b13f-68d7f1336b59/20260611T130000/
17:00:55 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:00:55 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-06-04+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
17:00:55 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/5favty69
17:00:58 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://tinyurl.com/wpt-a11y
17:01:00 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:01:03 <agendabot> agenda+ -> aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691
17:01:06 <agendabot> agenda+ -> update UIA mapping for maxlength https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2272
17:01:09 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Review roles with name from author and clarify expectations https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1800
17:01:12 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Impact of AI technologies on Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group's mission https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2796
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17:01:35 <pkra> present+
17:01:45 <lola> present+
17:01:46 <giacomo-petri> present+
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17:01:49 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:01:51 <aardrian> present+
17:01:56 <Jacques> present+
17:02:04 <pkra> scribe+
17:02:08 <pkra> agenda?
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17:02:39 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:02:39 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-06-04+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:02:39 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:02:45 <HaTheo> present+
17:02:48 <smockle> present+
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17:04:35 <pkra> jamesn: two new PRs. aria PR 2815 html-aam.
17:04:49 <pkra> ... implementation of what's been discussed.
17:05:16 <pkra> ... can we have reviewers?
17:05:26 <pkra> aardrian: add me.
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17:05:42 <Matt_King> present+
17:06:19 <pkra> jamesn: core-aam fixes, aria pr 2808
17:06:51 <pkra> spectranaut_: just a few fixes.
17:07:03 <pkra> jamesn: one looks significant.
17:07:08 <pkra> spectranaut_: it's actually a typo
17:07:19 <pkra> jamesn: do we have more reviewers?
17:07:28 <siri> present+
17:07:39 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:07:39 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/5favty69 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:39 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:07:58 <pkra> jamesn: first up aria #2817.
17:08:15 <pkra> ... distinguishing accessibility trees.
17:08:21 <pkra> spectranaut_: fall out from web driver work.
17:08:37 <pkra> jamesn: this sounds like a PR is needed to discuss?
17:08:45 <pkra> spectranaut_: we need to discuss it more in interop.
17:08:49 <pkra> ... you can assign it to me.
17:09:04 <pkra> ... we can skip the next one.
17:09:25 <pkra> ... discussing them with jamie and joanie.
17:09:37 <pkra> jamesn: the next ones are with daniel.
17:09:45 <pkra> daniel: you can skip those.
17:10:02 <pkra> jamesn: aria #2809. Removing the note on comboxes.
17:10:13 <pkra> daniel: we should get to that before 1.3.
17:10:44 <pkra> jamesn: right. The third note might need some adjustments afterwards.
17:11:02 <pkra> ... next aria #2807. describeFor, labelFor
17:11:19 <pkra> aardrian: came out of a discussion on a11y slack.
17:11:54 <pkra> jamesn: I'd have some concerns in terms of performance etc.
17:11:57 <pkra> spectranaut_: might be.
17:12:13 <pkra> jamesn: let's agenda.
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17:12:22 <sarah> present+
17:12:35 <pkra> ... next mathml-aam #39
17:12:44 <pkra> spectranaut_: I think people are working it out.
17:13:13 <pkra> jamesn: I want to point out that chrome treats a with clickHandler as links.
17:13:17 <pkra> ... can we agenda?
17:13:22 <pkra> spectranaut_: makes sense.
17:13:39 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:13:39 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://tinyurl.com/wpt-a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:13:39 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:14:23 <pkra> spectranaut_: there are a couple we should talk abuot.
17:14:38 <pkra> ... new PR for UIA testing. Very exciting. Thanks to Theo.
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17:15:22 <pkra> HaTheo: first one is a draft and I keep adding to it. Full support for properties, but also patterns and events hopefully soon.
17:15:27 <pkra> cyns: I can review
17:15:52 <pkra> HaTheo: this one (60533) is the foundation. After that it'll be more atomic.
17:16:03 <pkra> jamesn: next PR 60504.
17:16:06 <pkra> spectranaut_: I reviewed that.
17:16:16 <pkra> ... seems straight forward
17:16:36 <pkra> jamesn: 60503 is next
17:16:43 <pkra> HaTheo: this allows for flat trees to be created.
17:17:16 <pkra> ... it specifies when authors specify setsize etc. What's difficult is to create a hierarchical tree in the browser accessibility tree.
17:17:32 <pkra> ... I gave an example. Is this one expected to create a hierarchy.
17:18:05 <pkra> ... I posted it to the aria PR 2091
17:18:31 <pkra> sarah: I'll double check.
17:18:48 <pkra> HaTheo: it seems they come out flat.
17:18:59 <pkra> jamesn: can we add this discussion to the issue for the record?
17:19:08 <pkra> sarah: will do.
17:19:34 <pkra> HaTheo: the two points: is it valid and is it hierarchical
17:19:44 <pkra> sarah: I'll retest my assumptions and comment.
17:19:59 <pkra> jamesn: next 60502. We can skip
17:20:11 <pkra> ... next 60490.
17:20:15 <pkra> spectranaut_: I've reviewed.
17:20:28 <pkra> jamesn: next 60477.
17:20:32 <pkra> spectranaut_: we can skip that.
17:20:40 <pkra> jamesn: next is 60410
17:21:05 <pkra> cyns: I'm working on a gap analysis.
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17:21:33 <pkra> spectranaut_: these were converted from joanie's manual tests.
17:21:57 <pkra> cyns: I'm working on the html-aam tests so there'll be overlap.
17:22:15 <pkra> jamesn: next is 60401
17:22:35 <pkra> giacomo-petri: it's filling the gap we discussed last time.
17:22:41 <pkra> spectranaut_: I'll review.
17:22:55 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:22:55 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:22:55 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:23:02 <pkra> jamesn: any topics?
17:23:14 <pkra> ... we have one scheduled?
17:23:19 <pkra> Matt_King: we have one to be scheduled.
17:23:29 <pkra> ... posinset etc for menus.
17:24:02 <pkra> jamesn: let's try and schedule this.
17:24:31 <pkra> Matt_King: this needs to work for Jamie.
17:25:26 <pkra> Tyler: would we need an apple screenreader user?
17:25:35 <pkra> Matt_King: that would be good.
17:25:41 <pkra> Tyler: I'll check internally.
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17:28:36 <cyns> present+
17:31:16 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:31:16 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:32:05 <pkra> jamesn: where are we?
17:32:30 <pkra> Jacques: we discussed it yesterday. I think jcraig's input is needed.
17:32:44 <pkra> Matt_King: as an update: we're looking at the necessity and feasibility of various options.
17:32:56 <pkra> ... we've ruled out the browsers-don't-do-anything option
17:33:09 <pkra> ... we discussed a couple of options for browsers and AT to approach this.
17:33:24 <pkra> ... with more experimentation we can hopefully gain more insight.
17:33:48 <pkra> sarah: I could confirm that UIA cannot differentiate activations. So that would require UA heuristics.
17:33:57 <pkra> ... but we all have things to look into, I think.
17:34:37 <pkra> jamesn: do you have a timeline? Will it slip out of 1.3?
17:34:48 <pkra> sarah: do we need to solve this before the rest of actions goes in?
17:34:58 <pkra> ... esp. since it falls outside what's been spec'ed so far.
17:35:11 <pkra> Matt_King: what are the acceptance criteria?
17:35:24 <pkra> sarah: I think we need to solve if before the first AT implementation ships.
17:35:37 <pkra> Jacques: I think voiceover and safari already support it?
17:35:43 <pkra> Matt_King: I don't think it works in practice yet.
17:35:58 <jamesn> Agenda?
17:36:18 <pkra> Jacques: I meant chromium.
17:36:23 <pkra> sarah: safari has it behind a flag.
17:36:43 <pkra> Matt_King: also on ios?
17:36:53 <pkra> sarah: I don't think so. No way to set  flag on ios
17:37:03 <pkra> tyler: I don't think there's tech previews on ios.
17:37:08 <jamesn> Q?
17:37:23 <pkra> sarah: can the non-specific-to-focus events go into 1.3?
17:37:43 <pkra> jamesn: I think we specified in our working method that we will ensure AT implements new features.
17:38:02 <pkra> ... so that we no longer create orphaned ARIA features without screenreader implementations
17:38:09 <Daniel> present+
17:38:35 <pkra> Matt_King: my concern is that if it's in the spec but you cannot use it in practice without solving this problem then it creates the same kind of confusion.
17:38:38 <spectranaut_> we don't have any reference to AT implementions in our process document
17:38:48 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/main/documentation/process.md
17:39:06 <pkra> ... to me it's a big important feature. esp. on mobile. So I'd strongly like to suggest we get it to work the way we want it to work.
17:39:20 <jamesn> Q?
17:39:22 <pkra> jamesn: it's not in the process?
17:39:33 <pkra> spectranaut_: yeah, just UAs.
17:39:50 <pkra> Daniel: how much would an author implementation change after these additional changes enter the spec?
17:40:00 <pkra> ... that would be a concern from the process pov.
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17:40:12 <pkra> Jacques: I'd expect the UA or AT behavior to change, but not authors.
17:40:25 <pkra> Matt_King: I think that's right. No author must/should would change.
17:40:48 <pkra> ... just a matter of whether or not an author would be able to observe whether or not their code is doing what's intended.
17:40:54 <pkra> ... so they wouldn't have a way to test.
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17:41:06 <pkra> Jacques: but it wouldn't change in these scenarios?
17:41:09 <pkra> Matt_King: correct.
17:41:10 <Daniel> q?
17:41:19 <pkra> jamesn: what are the next steps?
17:41:41 <pkra> sarah: The answers to all of these questions are behaviors that are traditionally not in the ARIA spec.
17:41:49 <pkra> jamesn: we've talked about notes for AT implementors in the spec.
17:42:03 <pkra> ... if we have something for that, that would be the right way, I think.
17:42:06 <siri> +1 what is use of having aria attributes if they are supported by SR. aria is for SR users
17:42:57 <pkra> Matt_King: we shouldn't create more technical "spec debt" that impact a new AT or UA, making it harder for them.
17:43:12 <pkra> ... feels like there should be some UA musts or shoulds related to this.
17:43:22 <pkra> ... two solutions we're discussing are that way
17:43:33 <pkra> ... and we're not sure about the other one for screenreader-focused option.
17:43:54 <pkra> jamesn: if you all working on it are comfortable, that's good. Do we need more meeting time or do you need separate meeting time?
17:44:20 <pkra> Jacques: we can drive this forward separately but we need jcraig to get buy-in.
17:44:28 <pkra> Tyler: I think jcraig is the right person.
17:44:49 <pkra> sarah: I'll ping him.
17:45:38 <pkra> ... while we work this out, the group could think about where to put this information.
17:45:58 <pkra> jamesn: we have spoken about having notes on expected screenreader behavior.
17:46:13 <pkra> siri: can we leave a warning note?
17:46:26 <pkra> sarah: not needed, we have implementations. It's about this specifci behavior.
17:46:30 <pkra> Zakim, next item
17:46:30 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> update UIA mapping for maxlength https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2272 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:47:21 <pkra> HaTheo: there is confusion how this is mapped to UIA. The maxlength is part of a range.
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17:47:33 <pkra> ... it's used in a unconventional way.
17:48:11 <pkra> ... I just wanted to confirm that it's an approved way to ensure it works.
17:48:16 <sarah> q+
17:48:31 <jamesn> Ack sarah
17:48:36 <pkra> ... I reached out to scotto. There was push back from firefox.
17:48:58 <pkra> sarah: it's been a while. The properties refer to the value and no the text length.
17:49:12 <pkra> ... as I recall, the range value pattern was the specific workaround we talked about.
17:49:23 <pkra> ... I'll double check my discussions with Doug.
17:50:04 <pkra> ... I think this was all intentional.
17:50:53 <pkra> HaTheo: maybe we can update the UIA documentation to allow other browsers to have an easier time to understand.
17:51:07 <pkra> jamesn: would be a link to issue or PR discussions?
17:51:17 <pkra> Matt_King: I think there's precedence for that.
17:51:27 <pkra> jamesn: maybe not as much in html-aaam
17:51:35 <pkra> sarah: i can also try to update the docs site.
17:51:48 <pkra> jamesn: that'd be great!
17:51:55 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:51:55 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> Review roles with name from author and clarify expectations https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1800 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:52:23 <pkra> jamesn: let's try some more from this old issue.
17:52:34 <pkra> ... recall that we just discussed heading specifically.
17:53:08 <pkra> ... the underlying problem of name from authors with content causes issues, e.g. with screenreaders.
17:53:32 <pkra> Matt_King: in the past, we've prohibited naming on certain elements, e.g paragraphs.
17:54:06 <spectranaut_> q+
17:54:16 <pkra> jamesn: channeling my inner jcraig, are we overlooking some edge cases
17:54:16 <aardrian> Q+
17:54:51 <pkra> Matt_King: do we want to approach this one element at a time?
17:55:24 <pkra> jamesn: I thought we don't want to approach them one-by-one.
17:55:35 <pkra> ... but if there's a good reason, sure.
17:55:47 <jamesn> Ack spectranaut_
17:55:48 <pkra> Matt_King: the harder they are, the more important to go one by one
17:56:30 <pkra> spectranaut_: I think people wanted to treat this cohesively. We established last time that this starts with research on what happens when you put names on roles we want to reconsider.
17:56:54 <pkra> ... so I think research is the next step and I was wondering if someone is interested in that task.
17:56:55 <jamesn> Ack aardrian
17:57:01 <Matt_King> q+
17:57:11 <scott> q+
17:57:46 <pkra> aardrian: just to add: I have people getting questionable guidance to add aria on everything. So in an adversarial situation, pleasing other tools.
17:57:48 <jamesn> Ack Matt_King
17:57:52 <jamesn> Zakim, close the queue
17:57:52 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
17:58:10 <pkra> Matt_King: to get research, I think one element at a time seems best.
17:58:22 <pkra> ... headings seems particularly difficult.
17:58:42 <pkra> ... I wish for a firm solution - to not label but label conten
17:58:49 <jamesn> Ack scott
17:59:04 <pkra> scotto: I've done some research. I've filed bugs, reported issues in AT etc.
17:59:28 <pkra> ... I feel this is the problem with the permissiviness approach. Then we end up with things like this where things are broken.
17:59:49 <pkra> ... then we try to compensate with more warnings and notes, making things more difficult.
18:00:08 <pkra> ... I can take up the research again but I agree with Matt that we should take this on.
18:00:31 <pkra> ... e.g. voiceover handling this on MacOS but not iOS.
18:00:44 <pkra> ... we need to be more explicit with the expectations.
18:01:01 <pkra> jamesn: so we need more volunteers?
18:01:12 <pkra> scott: I will redo my old research and post updates.
18:01:14 <aardrian> I can help scott with research too
18:01:14 <pkra> jamesn: thank you so much.
18:01:26 <pkra> zakim, end meeting
18:01:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pkra, lola, giacomo-petri, filippo-zorzi, aardrian, Jacques, HaTheo, smockle, Matt_King, siri, sarah, cyns, Daniel
18:01:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:01:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/11-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:38 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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