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12:32:52 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/10-rqtf-irc
12:32:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:32:53 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jasonjgw
12:33:01 <jasonjgw> meeting: RQTF meeting
12:33:07 <jasonjgw> chair: jasonjgw
12:33:10 <jasonjgw> present+
12:33:12 <jasonjgw> scribe+
12:33:15 <jasonjgw> regrets+ stacey
12:33:19 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Accessibility of Machine Learning and Generative AI draft.
12:33:19 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Game accessibility.
12:33:19 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Miscellaneous topics.
12:56:50 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #rqtf
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12:58:48 <janina> present+
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12:59:05 <Joshue108> present+
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13:00:02 <JPaton> present+ John_Paton
13:00:50 <JPaton> scribe+
13:00:56 <janina> present+ Scott
13:01:00 <janina> scribe+
13:01:45 <janina> rrsagent, make minute
13:01:45 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minute', janina.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:01:51 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
13:01:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/10-rqtf-minutes.html janina
13:04:48 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
13:04:48 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Accessibility of Machine Learning and Generative AI draft. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:04:49 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
13:04:51 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, jasonjgw
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13:05:43 <JPaton> scribe+
13:06:10 <JPaton> janina: no recent progress.
13:07:29 <Joshue108> Is there a URI to the latest draft?
13:08:01 <JPaton> janina: There has been so good input from the group (present in the minutes) and some other ideas that may influence other W3C work.
13:08:42 <JPaton> janina: There's quite a bit to say but I just haven't been able to scribe it into the document.
13:09:42 <Joshue108> q+
13:09:55 <Joshue108> ack me
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13:12:40 <JPaton> scribe+
13:12:42 <JPaton> Joshue108: I'm happy to help out on this because it feels like something that is very timely and somewhere we could make a huge difference.
13:14:46 <janina> zakim, next item
13:14:46 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Game accessibility. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
13:15:11 <Joshue108> scribe+ Joshue108
13:15:36 <Joshue108> / Game Accessibility User Requirements
13:15:55 <Joshue108> JP: We are creating gaming user requirements. RNIB are looking at developing these.
13:16:20 <Joshue108> We are told we cannot have standards in gaming. There is intentional and unintentional friction.
13:16:35 <Joshue108> We are developing a gap analysis
13:16:52 <Joshue108> Are there standards that fit the brief already? There are some that could be applicable.
13:17:14 <Joshue108> Doesn't seem clear - at least not distinguisable between these concerns
13:17:38 <Joshue108> JP: Haven't made much progress but have been working on gap analysis on Github
13:17:58 <Joshue108> JS: Do you have the links from Matthew in APA?
13:18:04 <Joshue108> JP: Not yet
13:18:08 <Joshue108> JS: Will ping
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13:19:07 <Joshue108> JP: Matthew was wondering if we need a new user requirements doc, or if there is something that fits the bill
13:19:59 <Joshue108> q+ to ask if JP has looked at these
13:20:25 <Joshue108> ack me
13:20:25 <Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to ask if JP has looked at these
13:20:26 <Joshue108> http://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com
13:21:07 <Joshue108> SH: We've been talking about a11y standards stand point - we look at ring fencing the game, and what is possible. We've looked at Ablegamers etc
13:22:14 <Joshue108> JOC: Have you checked out the links in XAUR etc?
13:22:18 <Joshue108> JP: Yes we have
13:23:05 <Joshue108> JP: There are lots of existing docs and the EN 301 549
13:23:18 <Joshue108> JP: There is this and others
13:23:37 <Joshue108> JW: There is another challenge
13:24:35 <Joshue108> DIstunguishing between desirable and undesirable difficulties - in the context of education, there are some differences between real environment tasks etc - what are the core things as a part of the exercise in these settings.
13:24:41 <Joshue108> Maybe be less clear in gaming
13:24:55 <Joshue108> Gives us more room
13:25:18 <Joshue108> Not a learning process - some challenges are inherent
13:25:43 <Joshue108> A game designer may say some difficulties are essential
13:26:27 <Joshue108> Any insights John?
13:27:05 <Joshue108> JP: Some things should be ringfenced but there may be claims that something is just a 'part of the game' - honesty is needed
13:27:41 <Joshue108> This needs to be determined by the game designer
13:28:00 <Joshue108> This argument could not be used in context of subtitles etc
13:28:10 <Joshue108> JW: There is another problem
13:29:14 <Joshue108> If I'm designing a game - what are the essential charactheristics that give the same game as what I have in mind. Can be defined differently - this may include or exclude people with varying abilities
13:29:25 <Joshue108> There are maybe no fixed criteria
13:30:32 <Joshue108> We have latitude on certain things
13:30:59 <Joshue108> This is a conceptual problem - how do we define that the essential aspects are?
13:31:20 <Joshue108> JP: Do you mean difficulty in identifying the challenge at the centre?
13:32:23 <Joshue108> JS: I agree there is latitude - but as an abstract principle - in real terms, I don't know how practical that is.
13:32:34 <Joshue108> How many are thought of like this?
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13:33:43 <Joshue108> SH: I see this as when there are remakes of old games - the core game is often the same but may have more a11y features
13:34:41 <Joshue108> Designers and devs have a lot of control on how things are presented
13:34:58 <Joshue108> They can then ask 'What do they need to do to provide a11y support?'
13:35:30 <Joshue108> JW: It seems to be the same problem - with new variants of existing games.
13:36:12 <Joshue108> If they are not thinking of it the first time around, they likely are not on the second. They could define the challenges differently
13:36:27 <Joshue108> There are not the same external criteria
13:36:29 <Joshue108> q+
13:36:42 <Joshue108> JW: Not sure how you go about solving this.
13:37:14 <Joshue108> JW: If people had different abilities that could help frame this discussion
13:38:24 <Joshue108> JS: I can agree in theory but can't think of new things popping up
13:38:27 <Joshue108> ack me
13:39:00 <janina> Joshue108: Jason has a good point, and we should consider it
13:39:09 <janina> q+
13:39:21 <JPaton> q+
13:39:34 <Joshue108> ack janina
13:39:39 <janina> ack ja
13:40:19 <Joshue108> JS: We should define the kind of things that become desirable friction - like a clock, how well can you see, could become a game issue
13:40:28 <Joshue108> Fitting pieces together etc.
13:40:41 <Joshue108> We could make a list of common themes like these
13:41:20 <Joshue108> +1 to Janina
13:41:28 <Joshue108> JW: Agree with that also
13:42:15 <Joshue108> JW: Some may say for a11y purposes that a time limit is a essential but the puzzle needs to be solved.
13:42:17 <janina> jasonjgw: consider a game like scrabble but add a clock, is the clock essential
13:42:21 <janina> q+
13:42:27 <janina> ack jas
13:43:28 <janina> JPaton: One could argue time limits aren't essential, but we should let developers define what they think are essential frictions
13:44:36 <Joshue108> q?
13:44:40 <Joshue108> ack jp
13:45:12 <janina> JPaton: JPaton: Peerhaps designer should declare?
13:46:08 <janina> JPaton: If seeing how jigsaw pieces fit is essential, it may be a game a blind person can't play.
13:46:34 <Joshue108> JS: The example if not a new one
13:46:42 <Joshue108> These are just social conventions
13:46:51 <Joshue108> A game can take as long as it takes
13:46:54 <Joshue108> ack jan
13:47:25 <Joshue108> SH: Are there two different parts? What gaming elements have different impacts on groups?
13:47:47 <Joshue108> q+ To say this is all predicated on their being a fair level playing field
13:48:02 <Joshue108> Some things may have an impact on someones disability
13:48:05 <janina> scott: Perhaps we inventory those
13:48:13 <Joshue108> There may be captions and other features etc
13:49:07 <Joshue108> SH: We were talking about maps in 3Ds envs a la XAUR etc
13:49:20 <Joshue108> The GAUR will expose what these pieces are.
13:49:32 <Joshue108> Could help across W3C to have impact
13:49:35 <Joshue108> q?
13:49:57 <Joshue108> We dont want to change the challenge of the task
13:50:46 <Joshue108> ack me
13:50:46 <Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to say this is all predicated on their being a fair level playing field
13:52:06 <JPaton> https://github.com/w3c/rqtf/blob/JWJPaton-patch-1/Gaming_GAP_analysis.md
13:52:26 <Joshue108> JOC: I like the idea of defining the desired level of challenge vs the need to support multi modal access - interesting engineering question
13:52:50 <Joshue108> JP: This would help withe structure of the GAUR. And how to identify what frictions are essential
13:53:06 <Joshue108> JS: This will be an interesting list
13:55:21 <Joshue108> JW: Have you enough to work on John?
13:55:25 <Joshue108> JP: Think so
13:55:54 <jasonjgw> zakim, end meeting
13:55:54 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jasonjgw, janina, Joshue, John_Paton, Scott
13:55:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:55:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/10-rqtf-minutes.html Zakim
13:56:05 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jasonjgw; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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