12:50:18 RRSAgent has joined #matf 12:50:22 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/10-matf-irc 12:50:22 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:50:23 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Tanya 12:50:34 Zakim, this is MATF 10 June 2026 12:50:34 got it, Tanya 12:50:48 Meeting: MATF 10 June 2026 12:51:13 chair+ 12:51:31 JJ has joined #matf 12:52:57 present+ 12:52:58 rrsagent, make minutes 12:52:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/10-matf-minutes.html Tanya 12:53:20 scribe: JJ 12:54:03 agenda+ 12:54:29 agenda+ Milestone 2 issue list 12:54:49 agenda+ Success Criterion 2.5.3 - Label in Name 12:55:00 agenda+ Success Criterion 2.5.8 - Target Size (Minimum) 12:55:10 agenda+ Definitions 12:55:27 rrsagent, make minutes 12:55:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/10-matf-minutes.html Tanya 12:55:50 zakim, agenda? 12:55:50 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 12:55:51 1. [from Tanya] 12:55:51 2. Milestone 2 issue list [from Tanya] 12:55:51 3. Success Criterion 2.5.3 - Label in Name [from Tanya] 12:55:51 4. Success Criterion 2.5.8 - Target Size (Minimum) [from Tanya] 12:55:51 5. Definitions [from Tanya] 12:56:11 move to next agendum 12:56:11 agendum 1 -- -- taken up [from Tanya] 12:56:29 Tanya will facilitate this meeting, and the next 3-4. 12:56:35 rrsagent, make minutes 12:56:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/10-matf-minutes.html JJ 12:56:58 shoobe01 has joined #matf 13:02:21 regrets+ qbalsdon 13:02:26 regrets+ Joe_Humbert 13:02:45 pauljadam has joined #matf 13:05:01 ryomtoob has joined #matf 13:05:09 present+ 13:05:44 move to next agendum 13:05:44 agendum 2 -- Milestone 2 issue list -- taken up [from Tanya] 13:06:05 tayef has joined #matf 13:06:11 Tanya: Introduces herself, works together with Jan Jaap at Abra in product owner / auditor role, will be facilitating the next meetings while Jan Jaap is on parental leave. 13:06:49 https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20milestone%3A%22Second%20Draft%22 13:06:52 Tanya: Shows list of open issues for Milestone 2 13:07:14 Tanya: if there is no assignee yet for an open issue, please assign yourself if you can work on it 13:08:08 Tanya: Shows 2.5.7 - need to update link to definition when it is finished - no assignee yet who will take care of this 13:09:00 Tanya: shows a couple more issues, we are close to completing all of them but need to finish the drafts in the next weeks 13:09:44 Tanya: Focus is to complete milestone 2; so we can move on to milestone 3 with new success criteria to discuss 13:10:35 move to next agendum 13:10:35 agendum 3 -- Success Criterion 2.5.3 - Label in Name -- taken up [from Tanya] 13:11:50 Tanya: This was discussed last week -> https://www.w3.org/2026/06/03-matf-minutes.html#0b65 13:12:17 Related GitHub issue: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/39#issuecomment-4556774891 13:12:57 Tanya: Conclusion of last week was to keep the note about custom accessibility actions, but modify the wording. Detlev is assigned to draft it. 13:13:50 Tanya: We will discuss this in next meeting after draft is available. 13:13:53 Tanya: Any questions? 13:13:57 q+ pauljadam 13:14:02 ack pauljadam 13:14:27 pauljadam: Suggests to remove the note 2. 13:14:52 pauljadam: OK to wait on Detlev's proposal 13:15:09 JJ: Meeting notes available at https://www.w3.org/2026/06/03-matf-minutes.html#0b65 13:15:21 (JJ is updating the GitHub issues with the minutes this week) 13:15:59 Tanya: we keep moving in circles on this note, we will await the draft and then double check with the group. 13:16:15 move to next agendum 13:16:15 agendum 4 -- Success Criterion 2.5.8 - Target Size (Minimum) -- taken up [from Tanya] 13:16:22 https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/10#issuecomment-4613082423 13:16:39 Related minutes from last week: https://www.w3.org/2026/06/03-matf-minutes.html#5e8b 13:17:23 Tanya: We need to figure out the best format for the research done by shoobe01 13:18:15 Tanya: Kevin White (W3C Staff) and Hidde de Vries (W3C ex-staff) were asked if a "Statement" could be an appropriate document type for touch target size recommendations. 13:18:51 q+ 13:19:33 Tanya: Shows note about Web User Agents as example 13:19:37 ack shoobe 13:20:01 https://www.w3.org/TR/web-user-agents/ 13:20:49 Google Doc created by shoobe01: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qbmifBKu_vTXOxbkj6gKOHwBsf-7NVtni0HUkFOgO6k/edit?usp=sharing 13:21:10 currently at 12 pages. 13:21:18 3 pages of references. 13:23:16 Tanya: we'll see how to move forward with this. Can we share it with others? 13:23:25 JJ: Will share it with Hidde to get feedback 13:23:38 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qbmifBKu_vTXOxbkj6gKOHwBsf-7NVtni0HUkFOgO6k/edit?usp=sharing 13:23:43 shoobe01: will continue finetuning. 13:24:56 Tanya: We need to figure out how to link to this draft document or note in the future from the Success Criterion itself 13:26:41 JJ: Suggest to link to Google Docs URL in the note for now. In the future we can update URL. If URL changes, we can put banner in Google Doc that mentions new URL. 13:29:11 shoobe01: asks about the note that is needed, what is the plan? 13:29:33 Tanya: confirms that we will now add note with 1 paragraph about reasons to use larger target size 13:29:53 JJ: This target size document can influence WCAG 3 in future. Unlikely WCAG2 will change 13:29:54 move to next agendum 13:29:54 agendum 5 -- Definitions -- taken up [from Tanya] 13:30:20 Miro board: https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVGCgwkGY=/?share_link_id=724271040664 13:31:58 Tanya: Underlaying layer drafts: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/270#issuecomment-4669067598 13:32:29 Tanya: The diagrams in Miro have been updated. What we need to do now is to draft the text. 13:32:51 Tanya: for underlaying layers, which layers do we have, and who is responsible 13:33:06 Tanya: user agent is an important one. 13:33:10 ack shoobe 13:33:14 Tanya: asks shoobe01 to give update on miro 13:33:55 shoobe01: diagram structure is coming along pretty well. user agent replaced web(view). no problem there. 13:34:11 shoobe01: but we cannot say platform software because that already had a different meaning 13:34:27 shoobe01: need to figure out a name for that layer. 13:34:58 shoobe01: and avoid conflicts with other definitions. 13:35:22 Tanya: Looking at WCAG2ICT; they have platform software (showing WCAG2ICT doc). 13:35:48 shoobe01: layer jumping is not going to work with 1:1 platform software definiton because it fits too broadly 13:36:27 q+ to ask about overriding definitions 13:36:51 ack JJ 13:36:51 JJ, you wanted to ask about overriding definitions 13:38:14 JJ: Mentions it is possible to 'override' definitions from WCAG or WCAG2ICT with notes or making text replacements - but watch out for changing the meaning too much - meant for nuances 13:40:08 Tanya: brainstorming about the definitions in diagram 13:40:42 Tanya: the need for these definitions originally came from success criteria that have exemptions 13:41:46 Tanya: let's move to other definitions 13:41:51 Tanya: Cross-platform framework. 13:42:27 https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/84 13:43:32 JJ: It was part of https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/84#issuecomment-3748794971 overview, whether something is 'native' e.g. exception or '3rd party' e.g. no exception 13:44:00 Tanya: suggestion was that MATF could provide overview of which frameworks are native, and which one not 13:44:30 q+ 13:44:33 q+ 13:44:38 q? 13:44:56 ack JJ 13:49:24 JJ: Mentions some of the background on cross-platform frameworks and the difficulty of defining what is native and what is not. 13:49:56 JJ: the framework alone does not guarantee something is 'native', e.g. using Jetpack Compose or SwiftUI doesn't mean it is unmodified component, could till be custom 13:50:34 Tanya: In WCAG2ICT they explicitly mention user agent should be applied differently, they add platform software in addition to user agent - so exception is broader 13:51:09 Tanya: Here we are also going in circles, it would be good to make a decision and go with that for now 13:51:24 Tanya: have a look at Miro diagram and definitions 13:52:12 https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/270#issuecomment-4284139543 13:52:59 ^ latest proposals for definitions 13:53:58 discussing this proposal: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/270#issuecomment-4555271977 13:54:34 Tanya: finetuning needed, but going in the right direction 13:55:11 Tanya: how does the group feel about "Application" definition" (Moving way from platform software from WCAG2ICT) 13:56:18 q+ shoobe01 13:56:28 ack shoobe 13:56:42 shoobe01: application is not mobile specific, it is a commonly used term in software 13:56:47 q+ 13:56:56 ack JJ 13:58:46 ryomtoob has joined #matf 13:59:31 JJ: Agrees that Application could work 13:59:45 Tanya: need to be careful with exceptions. application level? or framework level? 13:59:57 Tanya: please look at the miro board and definitions for next week. 14:00:55 Zakim, list participants 14:00:55 As of this point the attendees have been JJ, ryomtoob 14:01:19 present+ tayef 14:01:28 present+ PaulJAdam 14:01:46 present+ Tanya 14:02:02 present+ shoobe01 14:02:28 rrsagent, make minutes 14:02:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/10-matf-minutes.html Tanya 14:05:16 rrsagent, bye 14:05:16 I see no action items