15:01:59 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:02:03 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/04-tt-irc 15:02:10 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:02:11 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:02:12 scribe+ nigel 15:02:12 scribe+ cpn 15:02:35 Present: Nigel, Chris, Pierre 15:02:58 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/340 15:02:58 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/05/21-tt-minutes.html 15:03:05 Present+ Atsushi 15:03:11 Regrets: Gary, Cyril 15:03:14 Chair: Nigel 15:03:20 Topic: This Meeting 15:04:08 Regrets+ Andreas 15:05:53 Nigel: [iterates through the agenda] 15:06:02 .. One issue with DAPT, 15:06:11 .. IMSC 1.3 post-tidy-up tasks 15:06:40 .. Media Type Definition and Profile Registry, AI, and TPAC planning 15:06:50 s/issue with/pull request on 15:06:57 ... Anything else to add? 15:07:02 (Nothing) 15:07:36 Topic: IMSC 1.3 post-publication tidy-up tasks 15:07:51 Subtopic: Errata and Release Tag 15:07:54 Nigel: Where are we up to with the errata document and release tag? 15:08:01 Pierre: I created the release tag 15:08:47 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/releases/tag/REC-ttml-imsc1.3-20260521 Release: IMSC Text Profile 1.3 W3C Recommendation 21 May 2026 15:09:07 Nigel: Is there any action remaining on the errata? 15:09:28 Pierre: I don't know. There's a link to the errata, and it says there are none 15:09:31 Nigel: That's accurate 15:09:56 Atsushi: There's a need to update the errata script, it's just a copy of IMSC 1.2 15:10:54 ... There should be a minor cosmetic update to the script, but it's there. I don't believe there's a default scheme covering entire W3C that's under maintanence, so not sure what will happen 15:11:05 Nigel: So I don't think there's any action for us to take 15:11:20 Atsushi: Unless about the cosmetic things 15:11:35 Nigel: The Rec says that errata exists. It's not great, but I'm not too upset 15:11:47 Atsushi: That's the default display in ReSpec 15:12:08 Nigel: I don't want to spend much time worrying about this 15:12:26 Atsushi: Maybe "Errata page exists" is more suitable? 15:13:04 Nigel: It's inconsistent with the rest of the header section, where everything is a URL and the label is the URL itself, whereas errata is different 15:13:16 Atsushi: That's a good issue to file against ReSpec 15:13:27 Nigel: I can do that 15:14:18 Pierre: Can we approve PR 645 on IMSC? 15:14:46 ... It's about updating the readme 15:14:52 Nigel: Done 15:15:22 Pierre: There's another PR to return to ED after Rec publication. I believe we're ready to do that now 15:15:30 ... Atsushi, it's ready to merge 15:16:33 Atsushi: There's a consideration about the public URL using a W3C name, for github.io publications 15:16:42 Nigel: That's fine 15:17:29 ... The only thing that's awkward about it is that we really need a new shortname in the ED, as 1.3 is done. But until there's work to do we don't need a new shortname 15:17:48 Pierre: In the past, until we start new work, the head is the latest release. That's what I'd prefer to do 15:18:10 Nigel: In that case the github.io looks like the Rec and it's not the right URL for the Rec 15:18:38 Pierre: Is that bad? The converse seems worse, for there to be a new ED with changes when there aren't any 15:19:54 Atsushi: Even if content is identical as published as Rec, but published in github.io it should be an ED 15:20:37 Chris: The only risk seems to be that someone takes the github.io URL thinking it's 15:20:44 .. the reference to the Rec 15:21:25 Pierre: The PR is merged now 15:22:01 Nigel: So it's done 15:22:09 -> https://www.w3.org/ns/ttml/profile/imsc1.3/text/ IMSC 1.3 Namespace document 15:22:56 .. The namespace is done, so I've closed the issue. 15:22:59 Subtopic: TTML Profile Registry entry 15:23:34 Nigel: We agreed that we'd set up auto-publication of the Media Type Definition and Profile Registry and Note. Has that been set up? 15:24:01 Atsushi: I need to spend some time on it 15:24:46 Nigel: Pierre has approved it, so I think I won't wait for that to be done before merging the PR 15:25:03 ... But it would be good to publish a new version of the Note as soon as possible 15:25:32 ... The PR is merged 15:25:56 ... I think all the IMSC actions are done. Is there anything else we need to do? 15:26:06 (Nothing) 15:26:36 Nigel: So we can drop IMSC from the agenda for future meetings unless something comes up 15:26:42 Topic: TTML Media Type Definition and Profile Registry 15:27:01 Nigel: There's still work on auto-publication to do 15:27:20 ... For PRs 88 and 89, review would be helpful 15:27:26 Subtopic: Update references from TTML1 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed 15:27:32 github: https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pull/88 15:27:54 SUMMARY: Please review 15:29:56 Nigel: This updates the TTML2 reference to TTML3, but I can see arguments why not to do that 15:30:09 s/TTML2/TTML1 2nd Ed 15:30:17 s/TTML3/TTML1 3rd Ed 15:30:21 Subtopic: Update DECE URLs to ones that work w3c/tt-profile-registry#89 15:30:26 github: https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pull/89 15:31:15 Nigel: Pierre, might be good for you to review. It's fixing the URLs for CFF that have been moved 15:32:41 Pierre: Does it match what we have in IMSC 1.3? 15:32:46 ... The URLs work. Approved 15:32:59 ... And they match IMSC 1.3 15:33:07 SUMMARY: @nigelmegitt to merge this PR 15:34:38 Topic: Impact of AI technologies on Timed Text Working Group's mission 15:35:07 Nigel: This came in the MEIG meeting on Tuesday (minutes: https://www.w3.org/2026/06/02-me-minutes.html) 15:35:43 ... We discussed last meeting that some organisations use AI to generate additional data, e.g., emotion, or per-word timings, using AI 15:36:15 ... and using those in their players. Someone mentioned wanting to do this in WebVTT, but you can't because it doesn't allow cue metadata 15:36:44 ... They'd invented their own metadata cue format that can only be used in their own player 15:37:20 ... I showed them an example using a namespace in TTML, where a player that understands the extensions would use them, and a player that doesn't would ignore them 15:37:49 ... AI generated additional data that needs to be captured and maybe standardised in subtitle formats. The task is to understand what the requirements might be 15:38:03 Pierre: It might be simpler than that. The standards exist, and people don't know about them 15:38:16 Nigel: Useful to know if things are already possible 15:38:25 Pierre: Can do it in TTML with animations 15:38:38 Nigel: So could make a use case document to show it's possible in TTML 15:39:09 Pierre: Find out what library these people use, and make sure IMSC.js or whatever we use can support the additional styling, and I think we're done 15:39:32 Nigel: I reserve judgement. Examples I've seen it's not obvious you can do it, e.g, effects on a word by word basis 15:40:05 Pierre: I agree. Ultimately we might decide new TTML features are needed, I agree. But most of what I've seen is simple 15:41:04 ... I'd start with solving their immediate problem. Lots of people are embracing AI but don't know what's possible with timed text and captions 15:41:33 Nigel: Two possible starting points: AI, or expressive captioning. Those things converge 15:42:37 Pierre: I'd look at the tools, and enable them to output TTML or a modern format, and have a renderer to PNG, something ffmpeg can use as input, put people on the right track 15:43:03 Nigel: I think it's worth going through the process to ask people what they want, then look at how 15:43:18 ... I think people have some ideas about what they want to express, and how to do it 15:43:48 Pierre: We've heard from those folks, but they're distinct from people putting subtitles onto Tiktok or Instagram, who make things up, as they have no other option 15:44:01 ... I'd focus on the people doing that today 15:44:27 Nigel: I don't know how to find those people, and their output is just video pixels... 15:45:31 ... I'd propose to write a proposal for something to be done under the MEIG umbrella, so we get input from non W3C members more easily 15:46:10 ... I took an action to write a task force proposal 15:46:21 ... Your input is useful 15:46:33 Chris: One note from me is that MEIG is a member group. 15:46:42 .. I use my Chair's discretion to invite people from outside, 15:46:51 .. but we're not by default open to any non-members to participate. 15:47:57 .. I think we would have to do the outreach. 15:48:08 .. Regardless of the structure, even if we were fully open, we would still have to 15:48:21 .. identify the stakeholders and invite them to contribute. They aren't necessarily 15:48:24 .. going to show up by default. 15:48:37 Nigel: Absolutely. I know at least 2 organisations involved. 15:49:35 .. any other thoughts on that? 15:49:49 Pierre: I would say that for me, the most efficient use of our time would be to make 15:50:01 .. sure there is a way to render complex TTML animations and styling, so that they 15:50:11 .. can be used with tools like ffmpeg and then promote that format to the various 15:50:26 .. subtitle AI tool vendors and ask them to output in that format so they can be 15:50:31 .. rendered in that cool way. 15:50:45 Chris: Dumb question. I've seen examples like on TikTok where they're rendered 15:50:59 .. into the image. If you had WebVTT or IMSC captions would they support that? 15:51:08 Pierre: It's all done by hand using Premier or that kind of tool. 15:51:17 Chris: So it's working round a limitation in the TikTok player, for example? 15:51:31 Pierre: Exactly. My assumption is that if tools existed that could take a subtitle file 15:51:45 .. and render it with all the capabilities they're looking for, that's what they would use. 15:51:51 Chris: Right, and it's not accessible to people. 15:52:06 Pierre: Right. I don't think people perceive that as an issue today, they just see 15:52:16 .. the subtitles and captions as one part of the editorial process, but as a result 15:52:24 .. they end up with something that isn't accessible. 15:52:37 .. If there were a way for ffmpeg to render style-rich subtitles and captions then 15:52:47 .. we would probably not be having this conversation because people would 15:53:00 .. author in that caption format, basically, be it TTML or WebVTT. 15:53:21 Atsushi: In south-east and east Asia most video content is open captioned, and 15:53:40 .. the closed captions are generated by AI from the actor's speech in the video, 15:53:57 .. but most videos don't have closed captioned content especially for social media 15:54:15 .. sites. I understand that some use an internal format for caption files, 15:54:32 .. but in the end the output is just a movie without any closed caption files as far as I observe. 15:55:17 Nigel: I agree, there's still a lot who use the lowest bar thing they can, e.g., SRT or 608 because they perceive it ticks a legal box for them, but it's useless 15:56:12 Atsushi: I think something like autocaption for language around the world, so it might be possible to include captions for short form view 15:56:37 ... This kind of activity could be initiated from Tiktok or south or east Asian companies 15:56:55 Topic: TPAC Planning 15:57:26 Nigel: TPAC is at the end of October this year. We've been asked to indicate if we want meeting time. 15:57:38 ... Usually I'd say yes, but what would we talk about? 15:57:53 ... I think we will ask for time, but how much? 15:58:06 ... Does anyone have constraints on whether they'll be there 15:58:18 Pierre: Unlikely I'll be there 15:58:45 Nigel: This came up in MEIG on Tuesday, Chris asked about joint meetings, e.g., MEIG+TTWG and MEIG+TTWG+APAWG 15:59:34 ... Advanced features might be good to talk about. And I want to come back to TTML2 2nd Edition. With DAPT nearly complete, no new requirements for TTML2 2nd Edition, so get it to Rec. There may be discussion around that 15:59:46 ... Also Dana suggested talking about interop work on WebVTT 16:00:00 ... Atsushi, will you be going? 16:00:11 ... Not sure yet. Depends on budget 16:00:31 s/... Not sure/Atushi: Not sure 16:00:58 Topic: Meeting close 16:01:07 Nigel: Thanks all 16:01:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:01:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/04-tt-minutes.html cpn 16:01:34 rrsagent, make log public 16:01:35 .. Next meeting is 2026-06-18 16:01:41 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/341 agenda for next meeting 16:01:51 .. [adjourns meeting] 16:01:56 rrsagent, make minutes 16:01:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:02:52 s/.. Next meeting/Nigel: Next meeting 16:02:54 rrsagent, make minutes 16:02:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:05:00 s/TTML1 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed/TTML1 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed w3c/tt-profile-registry#88 16:05:43 rrsagent, make minutes 16:05:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:06:42 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:06:44 zakim, end meeting 16:06:44 As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Chris, Pierre, Atsushi 16:06:45 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:06:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/04-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:06:53 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. 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