IRC log of svg on 2026-06-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/04-svg-irc
05:43:51 [karlcow]
Meeting: SVG WG
05:44:09 [krit]
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05:44:11 [karlcow]
Chair: Dirk Schulze
05:44:11 [karlcow]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3AAgenda%2B
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05:45:35 [dmangal]
present+
05:46:23 [krit]
present_
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present+
05:46:47 [krit]
topic: space trimming in the context of text/tspan
05:46:53 [krit]
https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/1114
05:47:00 [caribou]
present+
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05:47:14 [krit]
karlcow: We have different behaviors between browsers but that isn't the main issue: the spec is not clear.
05:47:16 [Neha]
present+
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05:47:28 [krit]
scribe: krit
05:47:34 [krit]
karlcow: We have different behaviors between browsers but that isn't the main issue: the spec is not clear.
05:47:48 [krit]
karlcow: There is a part of the spec that suggests to follow CSS for spaces.
05:48:34 [krit]
karlcow: later on in the spec there xml:space property which has 2 values: a default and preserved.
05:49:25 [krit]
karlcow: the default value will remove all space, newline characters
05:49:25 [krit]
> First, it will remove all newline characters. Then it will convert all tab characters into space characters. Then, it will strip off all leading and trailing space characters. Then, all contiguous space characters will be consolidated.
05:49:29 [karlcow]
https://w3c.github.io/svgwg/svg2-draft/text.html#LegacyXMLSpace
05:49:40 [karlcow]
'default'
05:49:40 [karlcow]
(The initial/default value for ‘xml:space’.) When xml:space="default", the SVG user agent will do the following using a copy of the original character data content. First, it will remove all newline characters. Then it will convert all tab characters into space characters. Then, it will strip off all leading and trailing space characters. Then, all contiguous space characters will be consolidated.
05:49:57 [krit]
karlcow: this is contrary to what CSS is doing.
05:50:16 [krit]
karlcow: I wonder if we want to keep xml:space or should we remove because of confusion?
05:50:41 [krit]
krit: xml:space is use quite a lot
05:50:47 [krit]
karlcow: the default or preserve?
05:50:53 [krit]
krit: I see it with preserce
05:50:55 [krit]
krit: I see it with preserve
05:51:09 [krit]
karlcow: I agree with preserve for compatibility
05:51:33 [krit]
karlcow: It should mimic CSS white space colaps?
05:51:54 [krit]
Vinay: We have both in Chrome
05:52:02 [krit]
krit: do they behave differently?
05:52:08 [krit]
Vinay: need ot check
05:52:45 [krit]
dmangal: We used to have SVG 1.1 xml:space and xml:space preserve. For 2 we kept both for compatibility but added white space from CSS
05:52:49 [krit]
karlcow: yes
05:53:14 [krit]
dmangal: So for xml:space preserve we following the CSS white-space properties behavior?
05:53:35 [krit]
karlcow: I looked in the webkit code. There is specific handling for white-space.
05:54:30 [krit]
karlcow: E.g for return, CSS is preserving, SVG is removing it IIRC
05:54:50 [krit]
karlcow: E.g Firefox differs to WebKit and Blink
05:55:13 [krit]
karlcow: Return keys are preserved in Gecko though the spec says not to preserve it for xml:space default
05:55:40 [krit]
krit: What about multiple returns.
05:56:02 [krit]
karlcow: the spec says it should collapse all into one.
05:56:22 [krit]
karlcow: Gecko is not collapising multiple returns into one. Blink does seem to do it
05:56:51 [viralipurbey]
https://www.w3.org/2015/02/08-css-irc
05:57:27 [krit]
s/colaps/collapse/g
05:58:33 [krit]
krit: Do we have a table with all differences across engines?
05:58:40 [krit]
karlcow: I can create one if that helps?
05:59:18 [krit]
viralipurbey: So it is only the XML side that is not aligned, right? So we deprecated it anyway.
05:59:49 [krit]
viralipurbey: I also added a link from cSS WG which talks about how preserve is suppose to work
05:59:56 [krit]
karlcow: So it is defined in CSS 4
06:00:26 [krit]
karlcow: The issue I have is the confusing text in SVG2. IMO we should remove all prose and link to CSS spec.
06:01:30 [krit]
Vinay: I am concerned with backwardscompat. The xml:space preserve behavior would slightly change.
06:01:47 [krit]
s/Vinay /dmangal
06:02:05 [krit]
dmangal: So we would see differences in older SVG space behavior.
06:02:25 [krit]
karlcow: We need to see how often it is used in the web
06:03:43 [krit]
krit: Most content is getting created by creator tools like Illustrator or InkScape. SVG is a transition format. So many web applications also rely on the current behavior.
06:04:08 [krit]
karlcow: Go CSS WG and request adaption on white-spaces maybe?
06:05:49 [krit]
karlcow: If there is a lot of content with xml:space, then we should make sure the CSS white-space is respecting the same rules in SVG. Only for SVG.
06:06:39 [Ragvesh]
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06:06:44 [krit]
viralipurbey: I was going throught the CSS logs and saw that the preserve was designed in a way so that SVG can use it. There are smaller differences but they are interested in aligning.
06:06:45 [Ragvesh]
present+
06:07:43 [krit]
krit: so similar to karls comment: get back to CSS WG?
06:08:08 [krit]
karlcow: I think the first step would be to complete the matrix to have a better understanding what is happening.
06:08:34 [krit]
ACTION: karlcow will create the matrix of all xml:space/white-space behaviors across engines
06:09:00 [krit]
ACTION: Vinay check use counter for xml:space preserve/default
06:09:29 [krit]
karlcow: If you have ideas about corner tests, add those to the github issue
06:09:46 [krit]
ACTION: Eveyone: think about corner tests for spacing
06:10:12 [krit]
topic: Behaviour of :percent spatial media fragment in SVG when no natural size is given for the external image
06:10:18 [krit]
https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/1113
06:10:32 [krit]
dmangal: I logged it but believe to have a resolution
06:10:56 [krit]
dmangal: We support media fragments in SVG. Spatial :precent
06:11:11 [krit]
dmangal: the flavors of media fragements have pixels and percentage.
06:12:17 [krit]
dmangal: If we can use the intrinsic values for percentage. That would work. Robert suggested to follow the cSS specs default 250
06:12:37 [krit]
dmangal: this is what Firefox does. Should we follow the default values as Firefox?
06:12:56 [krit]
karlcow: rendering in Webkit is the same as blink
06:13:05 [krit]
karlcow: but both are not aligned to Firefox?
06:13:18 [krit]
dmangal: correct. IMO we should follow the CSS text (and Firefox)
06:13:57 [krit]
viralipurbey: with intrinsic you mean the viewbox of the SVG?
06:14:01 [krit]
dmangal: the width and height
06:14:11 [krit]
viralipurbey: so the specific width and height?
06:14:13 [krit]
dmangal: yes
06:14:37 [krit]
krit: So lets agree to follow CSS spec?
06:15:33 [karlcow]
https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#images-processing-model
06:15:33 [krit]
RESOLUTION: For spartial media query :percentage, use the CSS specified default width/height 300:150
06:15:34 [dmangal]
300x150
06:15:35 [viralipurbey]
300 * 150
06:16:03 [krit]
topic: 16.3.2 fragment grammar vs. implemented handling of svgView() combined with xywh= (and other disallowed combination
06:16:08 [krit]
https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/1112
06:17:54 [krit]
dmangal: Interaction between different fragment identifiers.
06:18:20 [krit]
dmangal: what happens if spatial media quearuies and fragment idenitfiers are specified together?
06:18:35 [krit]
dmangal: Chrome and Safari ignore spatial fragments
06:18:55 [krit]
dmangal: Firefox only implements the spatial part but not the second part (other fragments)
06:19:18 [krit]
dmangal: the interaction between these is not clear in the spec.
06:19:39 [krit]
karlcow: Firefox just landed a fix 6 ays ago
06:19:51 [karlcow]
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2041929
06:19:54 [krit]
karlcow: svgView spec followed by a time spec
06:20:04 [karlcow]
Allow SVGViewSpec to be followed by a timesegment
06:20:13 [krit]
dmangal: it was missing but not directly related to the issue from karlcow
06:21:01 [krit]
krit: IIRC svgView hasn't been used much
06:21:14 [krit]
karlcow: because it never was implemented reliably
06:21:25 [krit]
viralipurbey: what should be the 3 possible solutions we follow?
06:21:51 [karlcow]
Option 1 — tighten the grammar (status quo of the spec). Add explicit normative prose:
06:21:59 [karlcow]
Option 2 — relax the grammar.
06:22:09 [karlcow]
Option 3 — codify one of the lenient parses.
06:22:35 [krit]
viralipurbey: Robert was leaning to option 1
06:22:44 [krit]
viralipurbey: dmangal too
06:22:46 [krit]
dmangal: yes
06:23:04 [krit]
dmangal: time fragments with those can be combined.
06:23:17 [krit]
dmangal: anything apart from that should get rejected
06:23:33 [krit]
dmangal: or in roberts words: the spatial fragements should get rejected.
06:24:53 [krit]
dmangal: only the combination of spatial fragments cross non-temporal fragments should get rejected
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/04-svg-irc
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06:29:29 [krit]
topic: TPAC
06:29:38 [krit]
karlcow: Any one planning to go to TPAC?
06:29:54 [krit]
karlcow: If we have a critical mass, we should have an SVG WG meeting
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06:33:59 [krit]
RRSAgent> , make minutes
06:34:22 [krit]
RRSAgent: make minutes
06:34:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/04-svg-minutes.html krit
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RRSAgent: make logs public
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