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13:48:59 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/06/01-lws-irc
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13:49:42 <acoburn> acoburn has changed the topic to: Linked Web Storage WG - 2026-06-01 - https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a19ab7dc-1753-433d-bac5-64e3ad8c0a43/20260601T100000/
13:49:53 <acoburn> zakim, start meeting
13:49:53 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:49:55 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), acoburn
13:50:12 <acoburn> meeting: Linked Web Storage WG
13:50:15 <acoburn> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a19ab7dc-1753-433d-bac5-64e3ad8c0a43/20260601T100000/#agenda
13:50:15 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:50:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Introductions & announcements
13:50:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Notifications vote #161
13:50:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Access Requests vote #106
13:50:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Terminology link discussion #164
13:50:17 <agendabot> agenda+ Auxiliary/Metadata resources discussion #165
13:50:20 <agendabot> agenda+ Type Index discussion #115
13:50:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Review task spreadsheet
13:50:34 <acoburn> agenda?
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13:56:18 <acoburn> chair: acoburn
13:56:24 <acoburn> rrsagent, make minutes
13:56:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/01-lws-minutes.html acoburn
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13:57:42 <acoburn> previous minutes: https://www.w3.org/2026/05/18-lws-minutes.html
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13:58:20 <acoburn> previous minutes: https://www.w3.org/2026/05/18-lws-minutes.html
13:58:34 <acoburn> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/05/18-lws-minutes.html
13:58:48 <acoburn> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/06/08-lws-minutes.html
13:58:55 <acoburn> rrsagent, make minutes
13:58:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/01-lws-minutes.html acoburn
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14:00:37 <acoburn> s|previous minutes: https://www.w3.org/2026/05/18-lws-minutes.html||
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14:00:46 <acoburn> rrsagent, make minutes
14:00:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/01-lws-minutes.html acoburn
14:01:25 <bendm> present+
14:01:37 <elf-pavlik> present+
14:01:39 <acoburn> present+
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14:01:44 <pchampin> present+
14:01:47 <elf-pavlik> scribe+
14:01:48 <gibsonf1> present+
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14:01:59 <eBremer> present+
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14:03:09 <ericP> present+
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14:03:52 <termontwouter> present+
14:04:43 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: there will be TPAC in Dublin Ireland
14:04:50 <laurens> laurens has joined #lws
14:05:06 <elf-pavlik> ... we should be thinking about our presence there, what kind of meetings we would like to have
14:05:21 <elf-pavlik> ... let's start making plans, pchampin would you like to add something?
14:05:45 <elf-pavlik> pchampin: TPAC is good because other WGs and CGs are there, we can organize joint meetings with them
14:06:12 <elf-pavlik> ... this year TPAC is the same week as ISWC, many people would like to attend both
14:06:33 <elf-pavlik> ... which will be in Italy the same week as TPAC in Ireland, not ideal, something to keep in mind
14:07:08 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: I don't think there is urgency, let's think about potential joint meetings or specific topics that we should discuss
14:07:41 <elf-pavlik> ... today we have two votes and two other items to move into queue to vote in following weeks
14:07:57 <elf-pavlik> ... fist notifications and access requests
14:08:04 <elf-pavlik> s/fist/first/
14:08:39 <elf-pavlik> ... later Terminology, Auxiliary/Metadata, and Type Indexes
14:08:57 <elf-pavlik> ... if time allows we will take a look at tasks spreadsheet
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14:09:08 <ryey> present+
14:09:09 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 2
14:09:09 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Notifications vote #161 -- taken up [from agendabot]
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14:10:24 <elf-pavlik> laurens: this PR replaces previous PR which introduced the base spec
14:10:44 <elf-pavlik> ... webhooks were split from the previous PR
14:11:13 <elf-pavlik> ... there is PR #162, I want to chat with elf-pavlik about streaming http
14:11:14 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/162 -> Pull Request 162 feat(notifications): Add WebSocket and Server-Sent Event channels (by laurensdeb)
14:11:31 <elf-pavlik> ... i haven't had that much feedback on those PRs
14:11:53 <elf-pavlik> ... given that couple of weeks have past, I assume that there weren't any significant issues
14:12:07 <elf-pavlik> ... I would like to move #161 to vote today
14:12:08 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/161 -> Pull Request 161 feat(notifications): LWS Notifications base specification with Webhooks (by laurensdeb)
14:12:16 <laurens> q?
14:12:27 <elf-pavlik> q+
14:12:32 <pchampin> scribe+
14:12:34 <acoburn> ack next
14:12:53 <pchampin> elf-pavlik: if that's a direct import of the previous PR, I'm happy with it
14:13:07 <pchampin> ... I will follow up shortly on the other part
14:13:08 <laurens> q?
14:13:12 <pchampin> scribe-
14:14:01 <laurens> PROPOSAL: To merge PR #161 as proposed
14:14:02 <ericP> +1
14:14:06 <elf-pavlik> +1
14:14:09 <laurens> +1
14:14:13 <pchampin> +1
14:14:15 <acoburn> +1
14:14:15 <eBremer> +1
14:14:17 <gibsonf1> +1
14:14:19 <Rbreitman> +0
14:14:26 <termontwouter> +1
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14:14:33 <jeswr> present+
14:14:35 <jeswr> +1
14:15:02 <ryey_> ryey_ has joined #lws
14:15:08 <laurens> RESOLVED: To merge PR #161 as proposed
14:15:09 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/161 -> Pull Request 161 feat(notifications): LWS Notifications base specification with Webhooks (by laurensdeb)
14:15:22 <elf-pavlik> I had conversation about streaming HTTP with Rahul in #103
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14:15:23 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/103 -> Issue 103 LWS Notifications Feature (by acoburn) [work-item]
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14:15:37 <pchampin> q+
14:15:42 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 3
14:15:42 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Access Requests vote #106 -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:15:53 <acoburn> ack next
14:17:55 <TallTed> present+
14:17:57 <TallTed> +0 (regretfully, not up to speed following my holiday)
14:18:01 <termontwouter> q+
14:18:07 <acoburn> ack next
14:18:43 <TallTed> I request that going forward, links to issues/PRs (especially but not only those up for vote/decision) be included in the calendar agenda
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14:19:31 <acoburn> PROPOSED: to merge the access request feature as defined in PR #106
14:19:32 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/106 -> Pull Request 106 Add editors draft for LWS Access Requests and Access Grants (by acoburn)
14:19:43 <elf-pavlik> scribe+
14:19:51 <pchampin> +1
14:19:53 <elf-pavlik> +1
14:19:53 <gibsonf1> +1
14:19:55 <termontwouter> +1
14:19:56 <ericP> +1
14:19:57 <eBremer> +1
14:19:58 <acoburn> +1
14:19:58 <jeswr> +1
14:19:58 <ryey> +1
14:20:10 <laurens> +1
14:20:19 <TallTed> +0 (as above)
14:20:37 <acoburn> RESOLVED: to merge the access request feature as defined in PR #106
14:20:50 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: I will merge it over next day or so
14:21:00 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 4
14:21:00 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Terminology link discussion #164 -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:21:21 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/164
14:21:21 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/164 -> Pull Request 164 Link terminology to definitions (by acoburn)
14:21:25 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: two weeks ago there was a vote to merge clarification of teminology, following discussions at f2f meeting
14:21:37 <elf-pavlik> ... this is not a vote today, i hope we will vote next week
14:21:48 <elf-pavlik> ... there are quite a few of changes
14:22:14 <elf-pavlik> ... where we use terms in the spec I'm linking to definitions
14:22:43 <elf-pavlik> ... we can do it in few ways in dependent specs
14:23:22 <elf-pavlik> ... the syntax with `data-cite` is bit inconvienient to use
14:23:40 <elf-pavlik> ... pchampin proposed to make proxy definitions that would make it simpler to link to terms
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14:24:06 <elf-pavlik> ... i'm not changing text, mostly adding tags, few changes are related to aligning terminology as agreed
14:24:36 <termontwouter> q+
14:24:41 <acoburn> ack next
14:25:05 <elf-pavlik> termontwouter: minor - linkset also ties to the PR on representations, it may need to be revised
14:25:15 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: I'm happy to revise it as much as needed
14:25:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/01-lws-minutes.html pchampin
14:25:50 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 5
14:25:50 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Auxiliary/Metadata resources discussion #165 -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:26:57 <elf-pavlik> termontwouter: PR itself only does what it says in the first section
14:27:33 <elf-pavlik> ... it rewrites few of the terminology that we have, so it is clearer that there doesn't need to be a specific resource that handles metadate etc.
14:28:10 <elf-pavlik> ... metadata representation ????, also the linkset
14:28:30 <elf-pavlik> ... we can have linkset as separate resource, but that would be defined on top of the representation aspect
14:28:35 <pchampin> q+
14:28:42 <TallTed> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/165
14:28:43 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/165 -> Pull Request 165 Define aux & meta in terms of representations (by termontwouter)
14:29:11 <elf-pavlik> termontwouter: in conformance section i propose that we take the representation as MUST and leave the resource as MAY
14:29:20 <elf-pavlik> ... server can choose what it provides
14:29:38 <elf-pavlik> q+ to ask about test suite
14:29:39 <acoburn> ack next
14:29:59 <elf-pavlik> pchampin: to make sure that i understand the consequences of this PR
14:30:21 <elf-pavlik> ... currently to get the linkset of a given LWS resource i discover it by a link in the headers of the resource
14:30:37 <elf-pavlik> ... would there be a different way to get the linkset or no specified way to get the linkset
14:30:51 <elf-pavlik> termontwouter: the main way is to get it partially via the link headers
14:31:14 <elf-pavlik> ... when we talk about reprentation of the linkset, it would change to the content negotiation on the resource itself
14:31:40 <elf-pavlik> ... optionally with the link header that is separate from the resource itself
14:31:47 <acoburn> ack next
14:31:48 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to ask about test suite
14:31:52 <pchampin> scribe+
14:32:05 <pchampin> elf-pavlik: it would be interesting to discuss with Samu how this could be implemented
14:32:12 <pchampin> ... it would make it harder to discuss this
14:32:27 <pchampin> ... a practical way would be to write a test for it
14:32:29 <gibsonf1> q+
14:32:32 <pchampin> scribe-
14:32:39 <acoburn> ack next
14:32:57 <pchampin> one issue that I see with this approach is that a LWS resource could not have application/linkset as its "main" media type
14:33:00 <elf-pavlik> gibsonf1: on elf-pavlik point of implementation, this is how our implementation currently works
14:33:09 <elf-pavlik> ... we can test agains it
14:33:18 <acoburn> q+ to ask about interoperability
14:33:19 <elf-pavlik> termontwouter: can you give a pointer to that in PR?
14:33:28 <acoburn> ack next
14:33:29 <Zakim> acoburn, you wanted to ask about interoperability
14:33:48 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: i want to bring up issue of the interop and that we have it foremost in mind
14:34:02 <pchampin> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9264.html
14:34:05 <elf-pavlik> ... linkset RFC describes discover via the linkset header
14:34:14 <elf-pavlik> ... URI could be the same as the primary resource
14:34:24 <elf-pavlik> ... one could possibly have a media type listed
14:34:39 <elf-pavlik> ... i could see that as a path, we want to be clear about the interop story
14:35:16 <elf-pavlik> termontwouter: i'm not sure how the linkset spec is written about use of header, i can look at it again
14:35:38 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: i would be happy with the direction of this PR if we can ensure the client interop
14:35:53 <elf-pavlik> termontwouter: i'll give some assurance by next week
14:35:54 <elf-pavlik> q!
14:35:57 <elf-pavlik> q+
14:36:02 <acoburn> ack next
14:36:06 <pchampin> scribe+
14:36:10 <pchampin> s/q!/
14:36:36 <pchampin> elf-pavlik: I can think of the link header as an optimisation
14:36:53 <pchampin> ... one could try conneg, and fallback to link header if it fails
14:37:16 <elf-pavlik> termontwouter: #116 contains some examples
14:37:16 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/116 -> Issue 116 Abstract 'containers' as Link Set representations of arbitrary relational metadata (by termontwouter)
14:37:33 <pchampin> scribe-
14:37:59 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: please take a look at the PR, I would like to vote on it next week, please be prepared
14:38:09 <TallTed> q+
14:38:24 <acoburn> ack next
14:38:49 <elf-pavlik> TallTed: incuding links to those PRs in the agenda would be helpful
14:38:53 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 6
14:38:53 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Type Index discussion #115 -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:39:23 <elf-pavlik> eBremer: I made two significant changes, first - there was a request for OR operations
14:39:33 <elf-pavlik> ... it's done as conjuctive normal form
14:39:49 <TallTed> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/115
14:39:50 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/115 -> Pull Request 115 add Type Index Section (by ebremer)
14:40:00 <ericP> q+ to ask about DNF
14:40:05 <elf-pavlik> ... implementation can use additional relations in link headers, not only 'type'
14:40:34 <acoburn> ack next
14:40:35 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask about DNF
14:40:39 <elf-pavlik> ... gibsonf1 was asking for MAY on ???, the base line is ANDs and ORs
14:40:59 <elf-pavlik> ericP: wondering if you have preference of CNF vs. DNF
14:41:08 <elf-pavlik> eBremer: I could take a look at that
14:41:34 <gibsonf1> q+
14:41:45 <elf-pavlik> ericP: if the use cases tend to lean to CNF being more tense ...
14:41:45 <acoburn> ack next
14:41:52 <elf-pavlik> s/tense/terse/
14:42:16 <elf-pavlik> gibsonf1: calling it type index is already incorrect given you can search for other things
14:42:33 <elf-pavlik> ...: i woldn't call it type search
14:42:47 <elf-pavlik> s/...:/.../
14:43:07 <elf-pavlik> gibsonf1: type index saying that other parameters are not allowed, it doesn't make sense to me
14:43:22 <elf-pavlik> ... this is a key feature for implementation to compare on types
14:43:34 <elf-pavlik> eBremer: I'm fine to changing it to MAY
14:43:39 <TallTed> q+
14:43:48 <elf-pavlik> gibsonf1: I made point of NOT being more important than OR
14:44:05 <elf-pavlik> ... there is MUST NOT that bothers me a lot
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14:44:14 <elf-pavlik> eBremer: I'm fine with changing it to MAY
14:44:37 <acoburn> ack next
14:44:38 <elf-pavlik> eBremer: as far as the name I defer to the wisdom of the WG
14:45:04 <elf-pavlik> TallTed: english language has problems with phrase MAY NOT, which is interpret as must not
14:45:15 <elf-pavlik> ... i'm going to be looking for it
14:45:56 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: I would encourage people to take a look at PR, I hope we can vote on it next week
14:46:17 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 7
14:46:17 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Review task spreadsheet -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:46:39 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: we crreated this spreadsheet following the f2f meeting
14:46:56 <elf-pavlik> ... there are number of items that are currently done, some are in progress
14:47:13 <elf-pavlik> ... some were planned to finish in MAY some were pushed up
14:47:34 <dmitriz> can somebody paste the spreadsheet link to irc?
14:47:39 <elf-pavlik> ... if you see your name, and something hasn't been started, for example - Clarify the semantics on containers
14:47:54 <elf-pavlik> ... ryey you have issue on virtual resources
14:48:17 <elf-pavlik> ... terminology will be onging task
14:48:24 <ryey> q+ to say about virtual resource
14:48:43 <elf-pavlik> ... pchampin were discussing publishing resources in NS namespace
14:48:49 <acoburn> ack next
14:48:50 <Zakim> ryey, you wanted to say about virtual resource
14:48:56 <elf-pavlik> ... ryey can you talk about virtual resources and the threat model?
14:49:17 <elf-pavlik> ryey: for the virtual resources i already have a lot of complicated info in the github issue
14:49:41 <acoburn> virtual resources -> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/150
14:49:42 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/150 -> Issue 150 Define Virtual Resource (by renyuneyun)
14:49:45 <elf-pavlik> ...: for it i haven't had time to seriously think about that
14:49:54 <elf-pavlik> q+ to talk about threat model
14:49:58 <acoburn> ack next
14:49:59 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to talk about threat model
14:50:03 <pchampin> scribe+
14:50:20 <pchampin> elf-pavlik: I'm going to help with the Threat Model as well.
14:50:31 <pchampin> ... I saw that the TM Community Group has cancelled some slots
14:50:46 <pchampin> scribe-
14:50:51 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: related to test suite and test harness
14:51:15 <elf-pavlik> ... the plan is that we will get an update once a month
14:51:35 <elf-pavlik> jeswr: I asked Samu to ask on most stable part of the implementation
14:51:45 <elf-pavlik> ... I will get an update for next week
14:52:08 <elf-pavlik> ... i asked him to write set of manifests for the tests, similar to SPARQL manifests
14:52:18 <elf-pavlik> ... those can be used by the conformance tests harness
14:52:25 <elf-pavlik> q+ to ask about generating tests
14:52:32 <acoburn> ack next
14:52:33 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to ask about generating tests
14:52:43 <pchampin> scribe+
14:52:49 <pchampin> elf-pavlik: what do you mean "generate tests"?
14:53:23 <pchampin> jeswr: tests would be described in RDF; a test harness would use these RDF definition to generate Karate Tests (code)
14:53:47 <pchampin> elf-pavlik: my understanding is that the RDF manifest describes what test is for what, but you still need some Java coded by hand
14:54:07 <elf-pavlik> elf-pavlik: Karate DSL has to be written
14:54:17 <pchampin> s/Java coded/Karate DSL coded
14:54:21 <elf-pavlik> acoburn: Karate DSL is where you define mechanics of the test
14:54:32 <elf-pavlik> ... the manifest will connect specific test with specific requirement
14:54:34 <pchampin> scribe-
14:55:23 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:55:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/01-lws-minutes.html pchampin
14:56:28 <acoburn> present+ laurens
14:56:33 <acoburn> rrsagent, make minutes
14:56:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/01-lws-minutes.html acoburn
14:58:54 <pchampin> i|this PR replaces previous|https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/161
15:00:08 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:00:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/01-lws-minutes.html pchampin
15:01:26 <pchampin> i|regretfully, not up to speed|https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/106
15:01:47 <pchampin> i|PR itself only does what it says|https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/165
15:02:04 <pchampin> i|I made two significant changes|https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/115
15:02:11 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:02:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/01-lws-minutes.html pchampin
15:02:52 <pchampin> present+ timbl
15:02:54 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:02:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/06/01-lws-minutes.html pchampin
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