18:21:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #a11yedge
18:21:56 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/05/13-a11yedge-irc
18:21:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:21:57 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina
18:22:21 <janina> Meeting: Accessibility at the Edge (A11yEdge) Community Group Teleconference
18:22:27 <janina> Date: 13 May 2026
18:22:31 <janina> Chair: Janina
18:28:50 <mike> mike has joined #a11yedge
18:29:05 <janina> present+
18:29:12 <mike> present+
18:33:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #a11yedge
18:33:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
18:34:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, who is here?
18:34:03 <Zakim> Present: janina, mike, Lionel_Wolberger
18:34:03 <janina> present+ Jason
18:34:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see Lionel_Wolberger, mike, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, croissant, Remi
18:34:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe+
18:34:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> Topic: ICCHP Papers
18:36:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Gave an executive summary of her paper, Beyond the Source
18:36:54 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/05/13-a11yedge-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
18:37:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... go back to considering accessibility across the whole pipeline, not just at source
18:40:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> jason: One of the axioms we have inherited, is that screen reader use should not be revealed to a website
18:41:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... But an end-user announcing to a site, these are the personalizations that I need, could be useful
18:41:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: THe post-source report does include that desire as an aspirational goal
18:41:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I agree, this is an issue we should address
18:43:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> jason: We treat mobile output differently, the user says "I need this viewport" and the site provides it
18:43:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the axiom is, everything should be supported equally from one source code
18:43:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... perhaps we can pick this statement apart
18:44:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: We see this issue in gaming, and some new approaches are being discussed, and not "one size fits all" accessibility
18:45:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> jason: That is a specific use case which may allow for this discussion
18:45:37 <janina> scribe+
18:46:04 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Will be presenting current state of post-source in user agents
18:56:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> jason: Evil people did not introduce the API DOM. The browsers introduced that API because it enabled helpful interventions
18:56:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the paper does not mention that
18:56:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: The paper is intended to drive home what browsers can do
18:57:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> jason: the browser allows JS to rewrite the DOM, at the DOM level
18:57:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... some people saw some quick and easy stuff at the DOM level and made overly broad claims based on that
18:58:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... but that did not rule out that this approach, put there by the browser manufacturer, for good reason
18:58:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> mike: It might be interesting to see why browser manufacturers built that in, in 2015
18:58:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> jason: I would guess it was not done for accessibility, it was likely done for business reasons
19:02:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> jason: A quick look at LLMs says: the DOM was opened up to allow dynamic web apps and experiences
19:02:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> mike: I am thinking back to Microsoft and Netscape browser-makers arguing, and I am frustrated
19:03:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... if you had a choice, with limited resources (a) fix everything at source or (b) at DOM level, which would you choose?
19:06:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> jason: Lionel's Browser Table paper, should connect what the browsers do
19:06:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> mike: This conference is very scientific, primarily for researchers
19:06:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: Let's meet again in two weeks.
19:07:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, end meeting
19:07:16 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been janina, mike, Lionel_Wolberger, Jason
19:07:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:07:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/05/13-a11yedge-minutes.html Zakim
19:07:26 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Lionel_Wolberger; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:07:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #a11yedge