15:54:00 RRSAgent has joined #ARIA-APG 15:54:05 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/04/29-ARIA-APG-irc 15:54:13 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:54:14 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 16:02:38 Jem_ has joined #aria-apg 16:03:03 Hi everyone. Our team has an important product release today so I have to be there. 16:03:10 I will miss today's APG meeting. 16:04:53 Siri has joined #aria-apg 16:07:15 scribe+ 16:07:21 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 16:07:37 Hi everyone. Our team has an important product release today so I have to be there. 16:07:37 11:03 AM 16:07:37 I will miss today's APG meeting. 16:07:44 Daniel: Good progress on the current milestone. No PRs on the agenda outside of those 16:08:11 jongund: I created a couple of PRs. One to fix the landmark link and the other the aside element update 16:08:48 Matt_King: No need to discuss the link updates. We have a PR related to aside already 16:09:41 ... Joe has provided comments, and I have provided comments, let's discuss when we get to that agenda item 16:10:09 Matt_King: Nex meeting is May 13 16:10:23 Topic: Publication planning -> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/41 16:10:42 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 16:11:02 Matt_King: 4 closed PRs and 3 in the queue 16:11:10 present+ 16:12:21 Topic: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2991/ -> Add Practice Page for Supporting Color Contrast 16:12:21 Matt_King: For PR 2991 Jon you said you'd send an email when it's ready for review 16:12:31 jongund: I sent an email to the list 16:12:57 Matt_King: I missed that. Is this ready for people to take another look? 16:13:02 jongund: Yes 16:14:11 Matt_King: Joe, Jemma, Curt and Adam are listed as reviewers 16:15:53 Daniel: Topic https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3400/ -> Revise Content for New Experimental Example of Scrollable Listbox 16:16:10 CurtBellew: I just incorporated the changes. Wondering if I should send an email or update you all here 16:16:20 ... I think I got the changes incorporated 16:17:03 Matt_King: This is now ready for people to look at. I'll need to add a comment into the related ARIA issue before I merge it into 3372 16:18:06 Daniel: This is a bit stuck at the moment in ARIA 16:18:23 Matt_King: I think we do need the examples for people to understand the challenges 16:19:02 ... I almost want to at least merge this into 3372 as soon as we think we are close enough and then update the ARIA issue 16:20:04 ... I want it to be relatively stable though. Part of this is the visual design, Adam's feedback could be particularly helpful 16:20:25 ... Jon, Ari, have you been following this? 16:20:35 jongund: Just a bit, but I could take a look 16:20:52 Matt_King: What's the resolution as per selected versus focused? 16:21:55 CurtBellew: Added a details panel so that when you make the selection the details panel reflects that. Scrolling doesn't change what's on the details until you select it. Visual indication on the check box. Star close to the check box. As you move through with the keyboard you still can look at the other options 16:22:20 Matt_King: We don't have selection in here, right? Just focus. 16:22:41 CurtBellew: As you use your arrow keys you are changing focus, but in order to select it you have to press Enter or space 16:22:46 Matt_King: Still single select? 16:22:50 CurtBellew: Yes 16:23:00 ... 3400 URL preview is correct 16:23:20 jongund: I think this oe has a keyboard trap 16:23:39 ... Get stuck when tabbing to the box, tried with Safari, Chrome, and Firefox 16:24:02 CurtBellew: Let me figure out what's happening there 16:24:52 Matt_King: The visual design piece has been updated. Selection not following focus is one decision we made. 16:25:13 CurtBellew: With the mouse you hover, you can move it without selecting. With the keyboard, you first focus and you can move or delete without selecting 16:25:23 Matt_King: Selection is supposed to display the item 16:25:31 CurtBellew: It shows the detail panel 16:25:37 Matt_King: Thank you 16:25:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:25:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/29-ARIA-APG-minutes.html Daniel 16:26:32 jongund: Just put a check mark instead of a check box, and nothing on the unselected ones 16:26:42 Matt_King: Is that what we do in other places? 16:26:47 CurtBellew: Yes 16:27:07 ... That jumped out at me too. Thought about making it a radio, but others are just like you describe jongund 16:27:17 Matt_King: How would this look visually if we make it like a radio? 16:27:22 https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/listbox/examples/listbox-scrollable/ 16:27:57 jongund: I don't think we need to make it like a radio, it's just getting rid of the boxes what I think would be clearer for me 16:28:05 Matt_King: This check is similar to aria-current 16:28:21 jongund: I think that's what you see in many radio-type selects 16:28:49 Siri: That's how we have it in buttons and list box 16:29:25 CurtBellew: There's no clear indication whether you can check them but I think this is implied. In the end it's just the visual representations 16:29:38 s/representations/representation/ 16:29:53 Matt_King: Let's fix it. There's the keyboard trap and the removal of the check box 16:30:38 Siri: Also addition of some tooltips would be beneficial 16:30:50 Matt_King: Are you saying icons that don't have text labels? 16:30:54 Siri: Yes 16:31:14 Matt_King: Those only appear on-hover, so you have to account for two hover scenarios 16:31:20 Siri: Yes, make sense 16:31:34 Matt_King: Do you agree CurtBellew? 16:31:52 CurtBellew: I think it depends on how we do that. If I add a title attribute it's a whole less intrusive 16:32:03 ... The problem is that the title attribute doesn't work well for the keyboard user 16:32:18 ... I'd look for a more descriptive icon 16:32:36 Siri: The icon looks different than a usual trashcan 16:32:47 ... If you can change the icon that'd be fine 16:33:05 CurtBellew: There is an icon repository that I could take a look at 16:33:57 CurtBellew: I'll look to address these two things, then the icon and changing the boxes to check marks 16:34:17 Matt_King: Thanks 16:34:40 Topic: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3418/ -> Landmark Practice: Update alignment between HTML aside element and ARIA complementary role 16:34:40 Matt_King: Let's talk about 3418 16:35:11 ... This PR was from an outside contributor that was intended to update the landmark guidance to accommodate the new mappings on HTML-AAM 16:35:49 ... Joe did a review and I've commented on some of that feedback, this was the one we were looking for you to review 16:35:59 jongund: It's incomplete, it doesn't address the example pages. 16:36:21 Matt_King: That's intentional. There's an open PR talking about getting rid of them 16:36:35 jongund: We'd be having conflicting information between the examples and this one if we don't get rid of them 16:36:52 Matt_King: Since we're not deleting the example pages with this PR, we should at least make them consistent 16:37:24 ... We could also have two pRs: this one where we agree on the guidance and how things should be wording, we could get this approved and ready to merge, and then have a separate PR aligned with this to update the example pages 16:38:02 ... Would you be willing to edo that mimics this one and also updates the example pages? 16:38:36 jongund: There are other problems with this page 16:39:04 Matt_King: Sure, but I'd like to get this landed, then merge this and then fast follow 16:39:14 Matt_King: Can you then add your review comments to this one Jon? 16:39:27 jongund: Sure 16:39:37 Matt_King: And then we could discuss in the next meeting 16:40:23 Siri: What's this trying to say? 16:40:59 Matt_King: That aside only becomes complementary only in two conditions: 1 within the context of the body or main, 2 if it has a label 16:42:41 Daniel: I think there needs to be split. It's complicated to parse for an outreach resource 16:44:01 Matt_King: The only time it should be complementary within main is if it's within body. In other cases, why doesn't matter where it is? ?What's the point of all of this complexity? 16:45:26 jongund: I think it should be if it's in the context of body or if named 16:46:16 Daniel: Valerie put some WPT tests, I think that's the only way for this to first be tracked and get alignment between browsers, not sure if this is the right time to update this guidance. 16:46:35 Matt_King: I think it needs to be much simpler. Either in the context of body or if it named 16:48:00 Matt_King: Maybe the thing to do here is opening an issue with HTML-AAM to be discussed in the ARIA meeting at some point 16:48:11 Daniel: I could do it 16:48:47 jongund: That makes it even simpler to implement 16:49:30 Matt_King: This would avoid people putting aside elements in many places 16:49:41 Siri: Should we make a point that it shouldn't be used within main? 16:49:54 Matt_King: No, we cannot chase every author error 16:51:08 Daniel: I think there's a valid reason to add complementary sometimes for examples for notes within the specs or other related content 16:51:19 Matt_King: You are right that we should give authors flexibility 16:51:50 Matt_King: I'll take it out of the milestone 16:52:20 Topic: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2438/ -> Determine how tabs examples should support reflow for any number of tabs 16:53:22 Matt_King: They made four changes to the accordion and put it into codepen 16:53:40 ... There's two changes related to CSS. I'd like to make sure we are aligned with this 16:54:13 ... The goal is for us to give feedback on whether these changes we'd like to make or not 16:54:31 ... First is the use of hidden until found 16:55:08 jongund: That's probably a browser switch. If you do a search it will disable the hidden 16:55:17 Matt_King: Does it have to do with HTML hidden element? 16:55:23 jongund: I think it's a pseudo element 16:56:27 Matt_King: That seems appropriate for accordion. It only changes what happens when doing a browser search. I guess it would automatically expand the accordion, but there wold be some tricks because you'd have to look for the event 16:56:53 jongund: This is a value for the hidden attribute in HTML. You can make it hidden=until-found 16:57:38 Matt_King: You JavaScript would have to look for a change in your hidden property and then change aria-expanded appropriately 16:57:53 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3428 16:58:43 jongund: It's more like visibility hidden where you'd still have a box 16:58:59 Matt_King: I don't know if our accordion was using none or hidden 16:59:12 jongund: We were using the HTML hidden element, which is display:none effectively 16:59:33 Matt_King: It may have some consequences to how the code is written 17:00:24 Matt_King: Change number 2 talks to browsers that doesn't support the content visibility, and then they go on with IE hacks 17:00:33 ... We officially said we wouldn't be supporting IE anymore 17:01:05 jongund: If I search for "City" it'll expand these three tabs 17:01:12 Matt_King: Does it set aria-expanded correctly? 17:01:16 jongund: No. 17:01:50 Matt_King: jongund, If you look at issue 3428 and look at the second change in the list, can you explain what this refers to? 17:02:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:02:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/29-ARIA-APG-minutes.html Daniel