17:01:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:01:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/04/23-aria-irc
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17:01:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:01:31 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
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17:02:05 <Jacques> Jacques has joined #aria
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17:02:26 <jamesn> Agendabot, find agenda
17:02:26 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:02:27 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/690d057f-db6d-4169-b13f-68d7f1336b59/20260423T130000/
17:02:27 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:02:27 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-04-16+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
17:02:27 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:02:28 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:02:34 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:02:35 <agendabot> agenda+ -> clarify css generated content alternative text https://github.com/w3c/css-aam/issues/16
17:02:37 <agendabot> agenda+ -> How should alt text be exposed? https://github.com/w3c/mathml-aam/issues/37
17:02:40 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Expectations for aria-hidden and focused elements https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2181
17:02:46 <pkra> present+
17:02:52 <filippo-zorzi> present+
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17:03:12 <aardrian> present+
17:03:27 <Daniel> present+
17:03:45 <Daniel> scribe+
17:03:57 <Jacques> present+
17:04:18 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:04:18 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-04-16+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:18 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:04:44 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
17:04:59 <Daniel> jamesn: Corrects conflicting language on focus management needs ACT review
17:05:06 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:05:23 <Daniel> pkra: This was originally by Melanie, I redone this, Scott JamesN and JamesC reviewed it
17:05:30 <katez> katez has joined #aria
17:05:33 <Daniel> ... Not sure if we do need ACT review
17:05:36 <katez> present+
17:05:42 <Matt_King> present+
17:05:44 <Daniel> ... Because they didn't review
17:06:09 <giacomo-petri> q+
17:06:18 <Daniel> ... Someone pointed out that the section has MUST statements but the individual rules have SHOULDs, so now the rules have also MUST
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17:06:35 <Daniel> jamesn: I need to re-review it, it's so long time ago
17:06:38 <melsumner> present+
17:06:50 <Daniel> jamesn: We should think if we need to do ACT
17:07:04 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Should we close the old PR?
17:07:10 <Daniel> pkra: I've set it up to do so
17:07:23 <Daniel> giacomo-petri: I can review for ACT, don't think it affects because there are no rules for this yet
17:07:44 <Daniel> jamesn: Please check the check box at the top and put not applicable. Thanks much
17:07:58 <Daniel> jamesn: Update definition of dropdown versus list box rendering
17:08:29 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Add me so there's two reviewers
17:08:39 <Daniel> keithamus: I can do that too
17:09:41 <Daniel> pkra: generate roleinfo after respec runs, please review
17:09:58 <Daniel> ... Tried to reproduce as much breakage
17:10:06 <Daniel> jamesn: I'll try to get at this
17:10:10 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:10:10 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Daniel
17:10:17 <jamesn> Q?
17:10:21 <Daniel> ack gi
17:10:22 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:10:22 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:10:22 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:10:26 <jamesn> Ack gi
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17:10:32 <benbeaudry> present+
17:11:29 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Anyone can review mine, it's small
17:11:54 <Daniel> giacomo-petri: I can review it.
17:12:07 <Daniel> spectranaut_: I'll email Simon
17:12:36 <Daniel> jamesn: Are the rest good?
17:12:37 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Yes
17:12:40 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:12:40 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:12:40 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:12:51 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
17:12:56 <Daniel> q+
17:13:21 <Daniel> jamesn: I saw you're going to be at the hack fest
17:13:32 <Daniel> ... The browser dev tools seems like a good topic
17:13:39 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Great idea
17:13:52 <Daniel> jamesn: Is it possible to schedule something at the end of the day?
17:14:01 <Daniel> spectranaut_: I can absolutely try to do that
17:14:03 <CurtBellew> present+
17:14:05 <Daniel> keithamus: I'll be there too
17:14:22 <Daniel> aardrian: Surgery happening, can't attend personally
17:14:56 <Daniel> spectranaut_: It's in the middle of June, three days. It is breakout sessions and presentations, people trying to work together on things
17:15:19 <Daniel> keithamus: People refer to this as TPAC2, with same crowds and hallway tracks
17:16:07 <Daniel> jamesn: Not the easiest place to get to a Coruna
17:16:12 <jamesn> Ack d
17:16:41 <Daniel> Daniel: Aria-actions is blocked.
17:16:51 <Daniel> jamesn: Is having a meeting going to help though?
17:17:29 <Daniel> spectranaut_: I cced Sarah last week, she said she'd get back to this soon
17:18:16 <Daniel> Matt_King: The challenges we were experiencing in the APG examples with the AT needing to be able to issue the click without the click generating side-effects I am not sure if we had consensus
17:18:25 <jcraig> q+
17:18:44 <Daniel> spectranaut_: The takeaway was that Sarah was going to propose something more specific for us to discuss
17:18:53 <pkra> agenda?
17:19:05 <jcraig> q+ to say aria-actions already shipped (behind a runtime flag) in Safari Tech Preview.
17:19:12 <Daniel> Matt_King: Hopefully we can get past that to make aria-actions feasible for screen readers
17:19:13 <jamesn> Ack jc
17:19:13 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say aria-actions already shipped (behind a runtime flag) in Safari Tech Preview.
17:19:32 <Daniel> jcraig: aria-actions is already on Safari behind a runtime flag
17:19:58 <Daniel> ... There's a path forward to keep it there, just we need to settle down on the interaction details
17:20:19 <Daniel> Matt_King: Does it work with the APG examples?
17:20:30 <Daniel> jcraig: It works but it's weird, I'd rather see some different examples
17:20:32 <benbeaudry> q+ to say Edge will soon start implementation in Chromium
17:20:47 <Daniel> Matt_King: We have the other one we're working on. Actions on the elements of a list box
17:20:52 <Daniel> q+
17:21:02 <Daniel> jcraig: That'd be a more expected example
17:21:10 <jcraig> s/It works but it's weird, I'd rather see some different examples/It works but the APG examples are weird, I'd rather see some different examples/
17:21:30 <jamesn> Ack benbeaudry
17:21:30 <Zakim> benbeaudry, you wanted to say Edge will soon start implementation in Chromium
17:21:42 <Daniel> benbeaudry: Edge team is going to implement it soon
17:21:43 <jamesn> Ack da
17:21:50 <aardrian> thumbs up
17:22:21 <Daniel> Daniel: Does it work with VoiceOver?
17:22:40 <Daniel> jcraig: Screen reader doesn't require any changes, this has been a native feature for years
17:22:48 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:22:48 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> clarify css generated content alternative text https://github.com/w3c/css-aam/issues/16 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:25:07 <Daniel> pkra: Just a clarification. It made me look up what we have on our end and I thought this was a good one to talk with the CSS people but also as an aside it occurred to me that in reading accname is not easy to discern that the alt functionality of pseudocontent is taken into account
17:25:17 <Daniel> ... Initially it was good for css-aam folks to take this on
17:25:25 <Daniel> q+
17:25:42 <jamesn> Ack d
17:25:50 <melsumner> q+
17:26:03 <Daniel> Daniel: They were supposed to meet in March
17:26:22 <jamesn> Ack me
17:26:26 <Daniel> pkra: They did review their pr and ask you to merge
17:27:04 <Daniel> melsumner: I think we should figure this out and put it in accname because there's other things were the spec is contradicting itself when it's talking about how the accname is built and generated in different contexts.
17:27:15 <Daniel> ... Probably under step 2.6.2
17:27:39 <Daniel> jamesn: If we start to model every single place where CSS can change the content it can easily explode.
17:27:49 <Daniel> ... If we can push the content to CSS that'd be great
17:27:56 <Daniel> melsumner: Good idea to point to it
17:28:02 <keithamus> q+
17:28:04 <Daniel> ... We plan to do it for html-aam
17:28:16 <jamesn> Ack me
17:28:21 <jamesn> Ack mel
17:28:36 <Daniel> keithamus: css-aam should be the place, right? CSS specs are a bit overwhelming?
17:28:45 <pkra> q+
17:29:05 <Daniel> jamesn: If the CSS specs have it that's fine, otherwise css-aam
17:29:17 <Daniel> keithamus: OK for accname to call out to css-aam
17:29:21 <jamesn> Ack ke
17:29:22 <Daniel> jamesn: I think so
17:29:27 <Daniel> Bryan: I'd agree
17:29:34 <jamesn> Ack pk
17:30:31 <Daniel> pkra: css-aam -- I initially opened this is on which bases are we doing this? HTML and SVG acknowledge that there are host languages to ARIA, but that doesn't quite fit with CSS, but also there's not equivalent, and there's also CSS content 3 which talks about speech and that's not really relevant.
17:30:38 <aardrian> Q+
17:30:47 <Daniel> ... What's the basis of this work?
17:31:08 <Daniel> jamesn: We talked about it with the CSS working Group  a number of times
17:31:22 <jamesn> Ack aa
17:31:24 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Sure. But I don't know how to make it formal
17:31:49 <Daniel> aardrian: CSS is now starting to become a language in itself, should be good for us to formalize this in any way
17:31:50 <Daniel> q+
17:32:06 <melsumner> agree with aardrian on this
17:32:17 <jamesn> Ack da
17:32:22 <Daniel> Daniel: I'll open an issue, this should probably be at a Charter level
17:32:53 <Daniel> pkra: I'll file  a separate issue and assign it to melsumner
17:33:14 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:33:14 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> How should alt text be exposed? https://github.com/w3c/mathml-aam/issues/37 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:34:19 <Daniel> jamesn: We'll keep it on the agenda for next week, as a task for people to get more familiar with this, unless people are prepared to talk about it now
17:34:34 <Daniel> melsumner: Is it really alt text for the Math element?
17:35:05 <Daniel> pkra: Yes
17:35:11 <Daniel> jamesn:  All one word
17:35:14 <aardrian> https://www.w3.org/TR/mathml4/#:~:text=alttext
17:35:49 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
17:35:49 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Expectations for aria-hidden and focused elements https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2181 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:36:46 <Daniel> jamesn: There are a bunch of comments and commits on this, mainly on webkit. We did talk about it, but I kept it on the agenda because we had some comments by Apple
17:36:57 <Daniel> spectranaut_: I think the spec still needs to be updated
17:37:00 <Jacques> We do a version of this in chromium
17:37:25 <Daniel> jamesn: I think we have a couple of implementations, we just need to finish off this PR
17:37:43 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Some of the Chromium implementation was rolled back, right?
17:38:03 <Daniel> Jacques: I think we're good with this now
17:38:13 <Daniel> jamesn: Is this testable in WPT
17:38:28 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Yes.
17:38:40 <Daniel> jcraig: Rahim was working on some tests
17:39:23 <Daniel> ... I'll file a new issue if the are no test
17:39:37 <Daniel> jamesn: Thanks.
17:40:23 <Daniel> ... Rahim commented on the pass for clarity, maybe someone else can pick this up
17:41:00 <jamesn> Q?
17:41:07 <jamesn> Agenda?
17:41:07 <Daniel> jamesn: There is some more work  to do on this based on James Teh's comments
17:41:39 <Daniel> jcraig: There are two WPT issues but they're too broad, so I'll file a new issue pointing to this one and also linking to these two
17:41:57 <Daniel> Topic: CSS Carousels
17:42:40 <Daniel> Daniel: Those who were not here last week, please revisit the discussions around the explainer and my demos
17:43:07 <Daniel> Matt_King: I can take a look
17:43:12 <Daniel> aardrian: Same here
17:43:34 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/css-aam/issues/18
17:44:45 <Daniel> [jamesn shows screen with demos]
17:44:53 <Daniel> Daniel: Please read the explainer and play with the demos
17:45:07 <Daniel> ... In there, I compare CSS changes with ARIA patterns
17:45:14 <Daniel> jamesn: Shall we put this on the agenda?
17:45:29 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:45:30 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:45:35 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:45:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/23-aria-minutes.html Daniel