00:27:28 RRSAgent has joined #open-web 00:27:32 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/04/22-open-web-irc 00:27:32 Zakim has joined #open-web 00:27:44 amy has joined #open-web 00:27:58 Present+ Hidde, Leonie, Amy, ChrisN, DanD, Dom 00:28:04 scribe+ 00:28:07 tink has joined #open-web 00:28:21 RRSAgent, make log public 00:29:02 cpn has joined #open-web 00:29:11 Present+ Tara, LiLi, DingWei, Daisuke, Ota-san 00:29:23 Present+ BenTillyer 00:29:55 Ben_Tillyer has joined #open-web 00:29:59 present+ 00:30:12 Present+ Jeroen, Igarashi, Avneesh, PLH 00:30:18 present+ Léonie Watson 00:30:30 kenneth has joined #open-web 00:30:41 Present+ KenFranqueiro 00:31:54 hdv has joined #open-web 00:32:12 koalie has joined #open-web 00:32:13 Present+ Coralie 00:32:15 aloha! 00:33:06 koalie has changed the topic to: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/dfd284f1-6c0f-4028-8b93-2a37c1fe8471/ 00:33:15 RRSAgent, pointer? 00:33:15 See https://www.w3.org/2026/04/22-open-web-irc#T00-33-15 00:33:33 Hidde: this breakout session is about the open web, a follow up of previous discussions at TPAC and IETF, with sessions chaired by Mark Nottingham about the problems the open Web is facing 00:33:48 Notes from those previous sessions: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WaXDfwPP6olY-UVQxDZKNkUyqvmHt-u4kREJW4ys6ms/edit 00:33:49 ... I want to focus the session on what kind of things we can actually do to mitigate what's happening 00:34:00 plh has joined #open-web 00:34:01 ... I want to move beyond talking to concrete action plans 00:34:34 ... the fact that the Web is open is something of us love about the Web, and likely a big part of what has made it so successful 00:34:55 Igarashi has joined #open-web 00:35:00 present+ 00:35:00 ... but the Web is being hammered by traffic to train LLMs, with lots of bots traffic increasing serving costs 00:35:03 present+ DingWei, Michiko_Kuriyama 00:35:25 present+ Hiroshi_Ota 00:35:36 ... that content is also being used for training, which is then exploited without backlinks to the original content 00:35:53 Dingwei has joined #open-web 00:35:57 ... e.g. if you're a news publisher, your content might be accessed via an LLM without ever getting a visit on your web site 00:35:59 present+ 00:36:07 ... we're seeing this on our Dutch government web sites 00:36:24 ... Wikipedia has also reported a hit on their budget because of that 00:36:39 ... Web sites can introduce paywalls, login walls, move off the Web 00:36:48 ... all of these affect the openness of the Web 00:37:01 .... the session description has links to blog posts which suggestions 00:37:20 ... e.g. supporting organizations that are pushing back (e.g. EFF, Mozilla) - maybe W3C is one of these too 00:37:26 ... regulation could help 00:37:37 ... banners for funding Web sites, à la wikipedia 00:37:50 Michiko has joined #open-web 00:38:06 ... focusing on publishing platforms that are easy to leave because data can easily be exported 00:38:28 ... in more general, enable more social primitives that enable to distribute content 00:38:38 ... re-take ownership of our tools 00:38:45 tara has joined #open-web 00:39:01 ... using ATProto as a way to manage contextual consent 00:39:21 ... does this require us to rethink of how we develop standards for the Web? 00:39:39 ... e.G. current work on augmenting robots.txt to manage traffic from AI crawlers 00:39:49 q+ 00:39:53 q? 00:39:53 q+ 00:39:53 ... What can we do in W3C to keep the Web open and address these challenges? 00:40:05 q+ to express interest and ask what W3C as a forum for discussions would be like 00:40:12 ota has joined #open-web 00:40:28 ack koa 00:41:17 koalie: one path for W3C to fight is through statements where we express the voice of the membership to save the open Web 00:41:46 cpn: I and my organization care very much about this topic 00:41:52 Present+Chunming 00:42:06 present+ 00:42:24 Igarashi has joined #open-web 00:42:25 Thomas has joined #open-web 00:42:31 cpn: I'm active in the robots.txt work; there has been a huge value extraction from open web publishers towards a small number of well-funded AI companies, leading to a new form of concentration of influence and centralization 00:42:48 present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi, Xiaocheng_Hu 00:43:18 ... the way we're looking at this is partly that we want to see a more fair value of exchange, which is not happening at the moment, as shown by the huge drop off of traffic to web site mediated by AI systems 00:43:39 ack cpn 00:43:55 ... some publishing companies see this in financial terms - either through a TBD protocol based on scraping/collection/usage that creates value that flows back to content creators 00:44:18 naomi has joined #open-web 00:44:19 ... there are various efforts in that space; e.G. the BBC is involved in project SPUR that would want to support a standardized solution for this 00:44:39 present+ 00:44:43 Igarashi8 has joined #open-web 00:45:04 ... also relevant the work of describing what you want to allow (in IETF), getting visibility on who's crawling 00:45:37 ... also facilitating gathering of analytics that are needed to improve content creation but aren't available through LLM intermediation 00:45:54 ... and for commercial companies, remuneration when the content is being used 00:46:28 ... right now this is approached through legal actions and licensing deals, but that's only available to large publishers, which doesn't create an equitable system 00:46:42 ... right now, the open Web has allowed this via advertising 00:46:58 ... if AI platforms become the new entry point to Web content, they would concentrate all advertising revenues 00:47:19 ... Without incentives to create and publish content, the web loses its sustainability 00:47:21 q? 00:47:24 ack amy 00:47:24 amy, you wanted to express interest and ask what W3C as a forum for discussions would be like 00:47:24 ack amy 00:47:24 present+ chunming 00:47:35 chunming has joined #open-web 00:47:41 ota has joined #open-web 00:48:07 amy: hidde, you asked if W3C is a good place to support this discussion - what would be needed for W3C to be such a place? 00:48:10 q? 00:48:36 q+ 00:48:37 ... I've seen a lot of thoughtful discussions happening on these topics in W3C 00:49:06 ack Igarashi8 00:49:09 present+ 00:49:11 ... should we look into an event like a workshop to provide a forum for our members and the broader community? 00:49:57 Igarashi: we should identify operations and actions to move this discussion forward 00:50:26 ... right now, we're missing important stakeholders (e.g. big AI companies) 00:50:32 hirata has joined #open-web 00:50:47 ... so far our attempt at getting them involved in a workshop have not been successful 00:50:56 present+ 00:51:06 q+ 00:51:10 ack Igarashi8 00:51:13 ack Igarashi8 00:51:14 ack Igarashi 00:51:22 ack Dingwei 00:51:24 hidde: a workshop would be an interesting idea to explore 00:51:34 present+ xfq 00:51:43 present+ chunming 00:52:08 Dingwei: AI is a new context for the open Web - it's not just about saving the open Web or the Web itself 00:52:26 ... we're moving to a new Web - the agentic Web; we should make sure it's an open agentic Web 00:52:33 How to invoke Ai tech ompanies are one of issues to to be address by W3C. 00:52:45 AvneeshSingh has joined #open-web 00:52:59 ... it's a good time to work on these techs via WebMCP, but it's a bit defensive - we should be more proactive in seeing how to serve the needs for agents 00:53:06 s/address/addressed/ 00:53:12 Kodajima has joined #open-web 00:53:37 ... if we don't it well, agents may move to a closed ecosystem supported by proprietary technologies 00:53:59 hidde: what would be the properties of an open agentic Web? 00:54:25 Dingwei: built on top of open web technologies (vs proprietary ones) 00:54:42 ... based on open web principles vs walled gardens for distributing content to agents 00:54:59 q+ 00:55:09 ack chunming 00:55:14 ... W3C is well positioned to make this possible, but if we don't go fast enough, a proprietary ecosystem will take over 00:55:34 chunming: open is usually related to internet - you just need to follow internet protocols to be part of the internet 00:55:51 hirata has joined #open-web 00:55:53 q?? 00:56:01 ... a key point for the open web is that all the service providers are free to set up their web apps and bring it to the Web space where users can discover it 00:56:18 ... in W3C's history, we've looked at Web a number of times 00:56:44 ... Web services wanted to make a platform to publish and discover services automatically 00:56:57 ... the agentic Web can be interpreted in multiple ways: 00:57:00 xfq2 has joined #open-web 00:57:04 present+ xfq 00:57:41 ... - the Web has an API to surface resources, functionalities - compared to the Service Web, the agentic Web would allow anyone (restaurant, university, any entity) to build their own agent 00:57:43 hirata has joined #open-web 00:57:49 s/has an/as an/ 00:58:22 ... making it possible for agents to interact with each other will need protocols - in which W3C may have a role to play to develop open standards for 00:58:24 q+ 00:58:26 q+ 00:58:30 q? 00:58:36 ack kenneth 00:59:19 q+ 00:59:19 kenneth: the open web is currently getting more closed to humans because servers are trying to protect themselves against crawlers 00:59:37 ... captcha, JS blockers - they create barriers to people with disabilities for instance 01:00:11 ... these scrapers ignore robots.txt and take adversarial approaches 01:00:22 ... getting AI companies in W3C only make sense if they're ready to engage in good faith 01:01:26 ... I think we need to support humans before we focus on supporting agents 01:01:43 s/JS blockers/JS-based effort checks/ 01:01:57 kzms2 has joined #open-web 01:02:26 Igarashi: the challenges to the OPen Web, e.g. walled gardens, pre-exist AI technologies, although they've escalated it 01:02:43 q+ 01:02:52 ack iga 01:03:00 ... it remains true that anyone can publish on the Web, but we've seen centralization towards services run by big players because they grow popular 01:03:06 present+ Kazuhiro_Hoya 01:03:56 ... social media also has played a role of intermediation 01:04:22 ... the agentic Web makes this more complicated because their algorithms are opaque to their own operator 01:04:49 ... I'm not sure how successful how W3C has been in fighting walled gardens in the past 01:05:04 ... not sure there is much W3C can do 01:05:38 Hidde: how can we ensure a successful collaboration with AI companies if we get them around the table 01:05:39 qq+ 01:06:01 Igarashi: so far we've not been able to attract them at the table 01:06:17 ... maybe we need a different way to approach them - e.G. target the CEO level 01:06:23 ... or via government agencies 01:06:52 scribe+ 01:06:55 ack d 01:06:55 dom, you wanted to react to Igarashi 01:06:59 q+ dan 01:07:06 ack dom 01:07:09 hirata has joined #open-web 01:07:14 dom: you're right the workshop from a few months ago did not succeed in creating momentum 01:07:23 ... initial focus probaably too ambitious 01:07:36 ... the message we got, I think, was that AI agents was so fast moving 01:07:46 ... that people would likely not be interested in having conversation 01:08:09 ... the topics we see emerging is precisely 'how does web content relate to agents' 01:08:22 ... how the sets of products relate to the web ecosystem 01:08:27 ... one focus is ecommerce 01:08:41 ... but the title of the workshop right now factors this in 01:08:55 ... I wish I knew what the right solution to save the open web [is] 01:08:56 q+ 01:09:10 ... my personal sense: the only impact of W3C is getting people around the table 01:09:15 ... number one step 01:09:31 ... bring value from our community, our process, our standards 01:09:34 jkamata has joined #open-web 01:09:38 ... let people come to the table 01:09:44 ... give them a sense of the tradeoffs 01:09:53 ... if the web died, they would suffer 01:10:10 ... if the quality degraded significantly they would suffer 01:10:24 ... this open ecosystem that W3C tries to animate, that's how I see us acting 01:10:27 scribe- 01:10:33 ack ota 01:11:04 ota: there is different point of views about the open web: content/service providers, consumer 01:11:40 ... for a consumer, the open web is not always comfortable, walled gardens can provide a safe harbor 01:11:55 ... transparency and choice are keys to enabling that sentiment of safe harbor 01:12:13 ack plh 01:12:20 ... W3C values the perspective of end users - we should look what's need to support that level of transparency and choice 01:12:31 plh: the open web is a system to share information 01:12:58 ... are AI agents part of the "everyone" we're trying to support? 01:13:11 ... the cost of infrastrcture to run a Web server is increasing 01:13:47 q+ 01:14:08 ... because of the cost to protecting the server against LLMs crawlers 01:14:12 ... e.g. paying cloudflare - who is now tasked with defining what a human is 01:14:46 ... the perimeter of content providers hasn't changed 01:15:24 ... the business model of publishers has had to shift a lot along the history of the Web - e.g. leading to the early need (and failure) of micropayments 01:16:11 ... for user publishers (e.g. via social media), the need to provide decentralization is served by our work on LWS 01:16:40 ... the definition of a user is evolving though - with agents and bots becoming part of that scope 01:17:02 ... if AI Agents are more convenient than human-driven interfaces, they're going to be used 01:17:13 q+ 01:17:40 cpn has joined #open-web 01:17:42 q? 01:17:43 ... maybe one way to reduce the infrastructure cost is to set up a push-model over the current pull-every-second approach 01:17:44 q+ 01:17:55 ack dan 01:17:58 ack dan 01:18:36 hirata has joined #open-web 01:18:57 q+ 01:19:03 Igarashi has joined #open-web 01:19:12 q- 01:19:29 q? 01:19:36 q+ 01:19:53 dand: ... AI is only exercebating issues we already had as previously discussed 01:19:53 ... we need to find the value balance 01:19:53 ... why do people publish in the open? 01:19:53 ... if it's for money, they'll want money back 01:19:54 ... if it's for fame, they'll want provenance/attribution 01:19:54 ... we should address these issues based on the underlying incentives 01:20:03 present+ Dan_Druta 01:20:21 ... When I use summarization from DuckDuckGo, they give attribution 01:21:00 ... AI companies act on behalf of users who love these products 01:21:43 q+ to disagree: AI seems forced onto users; they might choose otherwise if given a choice 01:21:44 ... we could have different publication paths - one for users, one for agents 01:21:44 ... with proper tools to manage this different paths 01:22:00 ... I think we should move way from characterizing this as "saving the web" 01:22:16 +1 01:22:19 ... people will keep using the Web, enterprises will keep using the Web 01:22:20 +1 publisher's incentive design 01:22:27 +1 we are not saving the web, but lead the web to its full potential 01:22:53 ... in many ways, I would want less of my data shared publicly which is creating huge privacy risks (see "my life" scraper) 01:23:07 ack tink 01:23:12 s/it's/its 01:23:45 tink: I don't think the Web is getting more closed, what's changing is the point at which users are interacting with content 01:24:07 ... printed newspaper got a lot of damage to their printed business when they started publishing their content 01:24:52 ... search engines replaced web sites catalogues, bringing a different business model 01:24:56 q? 01:25:08 ... browsers already provide a trusted abstraction of the original content 01:25:43 q- 01:25:45 ... maybe we need to look at it about how to make AI agents a trusted abstraction to interact with our content 01:25:52 jkamata has joined #open-web 01:25:57 ... including making it a fair exchange between AI providers and content providers 01:26:56 ... W3C's role may be to serve as a bridge, not just to AI providers and our current publishers, but well beyond - bloggers, music creators, social video creators 01:27:13 ... this would make this also make W3C more compelling to AI companies 01:27:17 [I would note that the I companies are (finally) coming to the SDO tables] 01:27:17 +1 to Leonie, W3C as conduit to attract the right voices 01:27:19 q? 01:27:27 s/the I /the AI / 01:27:49 Naomi: W3C standard technologies are vital as a global common language to safeguard the Web ecosystem 01:28:22 Let’s focus less on description and more on decisions in the breakouts of the AC meeting. Any suggeted action to the W3C? 01:28:36 ... W3C promotes the Open Web, and a number of our members already provide AI technologies 01:28:40 ack n 01:28:47 +1 to W3C as a bridge 01:28:49 ... the W3C Web & AI IG can serve as a place for these discussions 01:28:53 ... W3C needs to act as a bridge 01:29:01 q- 01:29:06 igarashi, the ecommerce workshop we're organizing should help in bringing the AI companies in 01:29:10 [I removed myself from the queue given the time crunch and I spoke before, but I want to say back to Dan Druta: AI seems being forced onto users who might choose otherwise if given a choice. Also, the web is being poisoned, so yes we need to save the web] 01:29:13 q- 01:29:25 thanks Hidde! and all for this great discussion. I hope it can continue more 01:29:35 Igarashi, if we're going to take actions, we need them at the table 01:29:41 [also, I prepared for this session by watching a video interview with Timbl taliing about AI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4jGrK13og0&t=305s ] 01:29:41 Hidde: thank you for the input, I expect lots of conversations to continue on this 01:29:44 RRSAgent, draft minutes 01:29:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/22-open-web-minutes.html dom 01:29:53 s/talling/talking/ 01:29:53 I wonder that the Team will co-orginize the workshop talk with AI companies with other bodies, i.e.g IETF. 01:29:59 +1 leoni it's supply chain change issue. we can maintain the web as fare last mile interface for users 01:31:27 #strategic-tf 01:31:49 s/#strategic-tf/ 01:33:12 naomi has left #open-web 02:25:50 Meeting: Strategies to save the Open Web 02:25:54 Chair: Hidde 02:26:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:26:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/22-open-web-minutes.html cpn 03:32:19 Zakim has left #open-web 04:06:23 kenneth has left #open-web 07:11:04 kzms2 has joined #open-web 09:33:19 koalie has left #open-web