13:37:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:37:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-wcag2ict-irc
13:37:39 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:37:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:37:40 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:37:57 <PhilDay> chair:  PhilDay
13:37:58 <PhilDay> meeting:  WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:38:11 <PhilDay> rrsagent, make minutes
13:38:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-wcag2ict-minutes.html PhilDay
13:38:35 <PhilDay> zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
13:38:35 <Zakim> ok, PhilDay
13:38:43 <PhilDay> agenda+ Announcements
13:38:43 <PhilDay> agenda+ 2.2.6 Timeout
13:38:43 <PhilDay> agenda+ Update to introduction to address Mitch’s input
13:38:43 <PhilDay> agenda+ Begin discussing content for new SCs from SC 2.3.2 onwards
13:38:49 <PhilDay> agenda?
13:38:59 <PhilDay> present+
13:59:08 <PhilDay> agenda?
13:59:52 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:23 <loicmn> loicmn has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:48 <PhilDay> regrets: Bruce Bailey
14:01:39 <loicmn> present+
14:03:25 <Daniel> present+
14:03:48 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:03:49 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from PhilDay]
14:03:58 <Laura> Laura has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:04:04 <GreggVan> present+
14:04:06 <Laura> present+
14:04:15 <Laura> scribe+ Laura
14:04:19 <PhilDay> Link to project board view: https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/13
14:04:30 <PhilDay> Link to level AAA status table on wiki: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Adding-Level-AAA-%E2%80%90-status-table
14:04:40 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3AAAA%20no%3Aassignee%20sort%3Acreated-asc
14:05:10 <Laura> Zakim, next item
14:05:10 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.2.6 Timeout -- taken up [from PhilDay]
14:05:15 <PhilDay> Link to issue: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/547
14:05:32 <PhilDay> Applying SC 2.2.6 Timeouts to non-web documents and non-web software
14:05:32 <PhilDay> This applies directly as written, and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 2.2.6.
14:05:32 <PhilDay> NOTE
14:05:32 <PhilDay> See also the Comments on Closed Functionality.
14:05:33 <PhilDay> With the following addition in SC problematic for closed:
14:05:33 <PhilDay> 2.2.6 Timeouts - Some ICT with closed functionality may enforce a timeout (for example, in a system where security rules require a session to be ended after some period of inactivity). In this case, the time limit can be considered as essential, and it may therefore be problematic to apply this success criterion to such systems. However, it is
14:05:33 <PhilDay> still best practice that the user be given the option to extend the timeout as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 2.2.1.
14:06:59 <Laura> q+
14:07:05 <PhilDay> ack Laura
14:07:10 <Daniel> scribe+
14:07:13 <PhilDay> scribe+ PhilDay
14:07:31 <Daniel> Laura: Are we saying an extension should be done as a best practice but not realistic?
14:07:33 <Daniel> scribe-
14:08:05 <Laura> scribe+ Laura
14:08:43 <Laura> GreggVan: We should just skip this completely as there are many reasons that a timeout notification and  extension is not realistic.
14:09:30 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Suggest we make the note broader
14:09:41 <Laura> GreggVan: I would make it more general and not name one
14:09:43 <Daniel> s/Link to/-> Link to/g
14:10:45 <Laura> GreggVan: What are the reasons for non web that you would not be able to warn them before cutting them off
14:11:24 <Daniel> s/created-asc/created-asc -> Open AAA SC issues/
14:11:26 <Laura> GreggVan: Retract making it broader due to the fact that we are talking about non web.
14:12:10 <Laura> GreggVan: we should say that this is one (for non web content) we should consider a requirement.
14:12:28 <loicmn> q+ to suggest "apply as written" with no additional notes
14:12:40 <Laura> GreggVan: there are many reasons to cut them off but no reasons not to warn them.
14:12:43 <PhilDay> ack loicmn
14:12:43 <Zakim> loicmn, you wanted to suggest "apply as written" with no additional notes
14:13:15 <Laura> Loicmn: Because there is a requirement in the SC to warn users, there is no reason to add anything.
14:13:23 <Laura> q+
14:13:26 <Daniel> s/created-asc/created-asc -> Open AAA SC issues/
14:13:35 <PhilDay> ack Laura
14:13:38 <GreggVan> q+
14:13:43 <Daniel> q+
14:13:44 <PhilDay> Revised content is therefore as follows.
14:13:44 <PhilDay> Applying SC 2.2.6 Timeouts to non-web documents and non-web software
14:13:44 <PhilDay> This applies directly as written, and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 2.2.6.
14:13:54 <PhilDay> q?
14:14:09 <PhilDay> ack GreggVan
14:14:44 <loicmn> q+ to reply to Laura as I see no different for non-web
14:14:52 <PhilDay> Laura: Do we need to clarify web vs non-web ?
14:15:09 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Think we should add a note - applies as written.
14:15:36 <PhilDay> ... but may need a note to say the 20 hours example may not apply
14:17:22 <PhilDay> q?
14:17:49 <Laura> GreggVan: I can't think of anything where you wouldn't give a warning.
14:18:22 <PhilDay> q?
14:18:23 <Laura> GreggVan: Because you issued the warning, you have to allow time to extend before timing them out
14:18:48 <Laura> GreggVan: Applies as written but some consideration should be given to timeout requirement for non web
14:19:10 <Laura> ack Daniel
14:19:10 <PhilDay> ack Daniel
14:19:21 <PhilDay> Daniel: Agree - remove the note
14:19:48 <PhilDay> q?
14:20:10 <PhilDay> ack loicmn
14:20:10 <Zakim> loicmn, you wanted to reply to Laura as I see no different for non-web
14:20:38 <Laura> Loicmn: We do not need anything. There is no essential exception.
14:20:48 <Laura> Loicmn: We could add detail about the 20 hours.
14:21:23 <GreggVan> q+ to say  "Applies a written but the warning by itself should be considered for non-web software"
14:21:29 <PhilDay> Revised content is therefore as follows (no note needed).
14:21:29 <PhilDay> Applying SC 2.2.6 Timeouts to non-web documents and non-web software
14:21:29 <PhilDay> This applies directly as written, and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 2.2.6.
14:21:38 <PhilDay> q?
14:21:41 <PhilDay> ack GreggVan
14:21:41 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say  "Applies a written but the warning by itself should be considered for non-web software"
14:22:10 <Daniel> q+
14:23:10 <Laura> GreggVan: For non web, before you throw the data way, give them a warning.
14:23:25 <PhilDay> q?
14:23:40 <Daniel> q-
14:23:42 <Laura> GreggVan: But this is not an accessibility issue, it's a common sense rul;e
14:23:56 <Laura> s/rul;e/rule
14:24:00 <PhilDay> DRAFT RESOLUTION: For 2.2.6 Timeouts, incorporate proposal into the editor’s draft, with edits shown in the meeting minutes (remove the note) above
14:24:16 <loicmn> +1
14:24:17 <PhilDay> +1
14:24:25 <Laura> +1
14:24:26 <Daniel> +1
14:24:27 <GreggVan> +1
14:24:36 <PhilDay> RESOLUTION: For 2.2.6 Timeouts, incorporate proposal into the editor’s draft, with edits shown in the meeting minutes (remove the note) above
14:24:58 <Laura> Zakim, next item
14:24:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Update to introduction to address Mitch’s input -- taken up [from PhilDay]
14:25:06 <PhilDay> Original issue raised by Mitch, concerning how we define non-web documents: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/852
14:25:19 <PhilDay> Quote from bottom of Mitch’s latest response
14:25:20 <PhilDay> To sum up the contradiction: policies stretch "non-web documents" to include downloaded non-HTML documents; the policies point readers to WCAG2ICT for important information; yet WCAG2ICT does not accommodate the stretch.
14:25:20 <PhilDay> I don't see any negative consequences of the stretch, only practical advantages. But I assume that WCAG2ICT needs to stick with its official scope. So I recommend adding a note like the following. It would fit in the Guidance in This Document section, either directly after Note 1 or at the bottom of the section.
14:25:20 <PhilDay> Note 2: WCAG2ICT's guidance for documents is technically scoped to non-web documents (those distributed outside of websites). This same guidance may also be useful for documents that are downloaded from websites.
14:25:45 <PhilDay> PR:  https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/883
14:25:53 <PhilDay> Preview diff of the PR: https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fwcag2ict%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Fdeploy-preview-883--wcag2ict.netlify.app#interpretation-of-web-terminology-in-a-non-web-context
14:25:59 <PhilDay> Relevant section of existing editor’s draft: https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/#interpretation-of-web-terminology-in-a-non-web-context
14:26:47 <PhilDay> New note: NOTE 1
14:26:48 <PhilDay>  WCAG2ICT's guidance for documents is technically scoped to non-web documents (those distributed outside of websites). This same guidance may also be useful for documents that are downloaded from websites.
14:27:24 <PhilDay> GreggVan: change the note. Once document is downloaded from the web, it can now be considered as a non-web document
14:27:44 <PhilDay> q?
14:28:20 <GreggVan> s/it can now/it is now/
14:28:49 <GreggVan> s/is now be/is now/
14:29:12 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:29:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-wcag2ict-minutes.html Daniel
14:29:19 <GreggVan> s/is as/is/
14:29:32 <PhilDay> NOTE 1
14:29:32 <PhilDay>  WCAG2ICT's guidance for documents is technically scoped to non-web documents (those distributed outside of websites). Any document that is downloaded from the web should be considered as a non-web document; as opposed to a document viewed through the web (and not downloaded).
14:29:37 <Laura> q+
14:29:59 <GreggVan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:30:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-wcag2ict-minutes.html GreggVan
14:30:38 <PhilDay> ack Laura
14:31:02 <PhilDay> Laura: if we have a definition for a non-web document - we don't need to define it here again.
14:31:12 <Daniel> q+
14:31:27 <PhilDay> q?
14:31:35 <loicmn> Definition of "non-web document" from EN 301 549: non-web document: document that is not a web page, not embedded in web pages nor used in the rendering or functioning of the page
14:31:36 <loicmn> q+
14:32:02 <PhilDay> q?
14:32:06 <PhilDay> ack Daniel
14:32:40 <Laura> Daniel: We currently say "document that is downloaded from the web" should we say "document that is downloadable"?
14:32:41 <PhilDay> q?
14:32:43 <PhilDay> ack loicmn
14:33:13 <Laura> Loicmn: WCAG2ICT does not apparently define non web document but we can look to EN 301 549 as a starting definition.
14:33:34 <GreggVan> q+ to say     Add this note to the definition of  Non-web document    NOTE: If a document on the web is viewed through a web user agent it is web content. If the same document is downloaded from the web and distributed it is a non-web document.
14:34:10 <PhilDay> q?
14:34:16 <PhilDay> ack GreggVan
14:34:16 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say     Add this note to the definition of  Non-web document    NOTE: If a document on the web is viewed through a web user agent it is web content. If the
14:34:19 <Zakim> ... same document is downloaded from the web and distributed it is a non-web document.
14:35:02 <Laura> GreggVan: Add a note to the definition of non-web document as noted above.
14:35:22 <PhilDay> q?
14:35:31 <Laura> GreggVan: If it is downloaded, it becomes a non web document - if distributed once downloaded it is a non web document.
14:36:28 <PhilDay> Bruce's original note: NOTE 1
14:36:28 <PhilDay>  WCAG2ICT's guidance for documents is technically scoped to non-web documents (those distributed outside of websites). This same guidance may also be useful for documents that are downloaded from websites.
14:36:40 <Daniel> q+
14:37:20 <Daniel> q-
14:38:10 <Laura> GreggVan: we should have a definition of non web documents
14:38:35 <PhilDay> Proposal: Add a definition for non-web documents, this should use the EN definition and add Gregg's note in the definition.
14:38:58 <PhilDay> We should then modify Bruce's note in "Interpretation of web terminology in a non-web context" to reference this definition.
14:39:21 <GreggVan> new second sentence to bruce note:   If a document is downloaded from the web and distributed it is a non-web document.
14:39:30 <Laura> +1
14:39:31 <loicmn> +1
14:39:37 <Daniel> +1
14:40:20 <PhilDay> new second sentence to bruce note:   If a document is downloaded from the web and distributed it is an example ofa non-web document.
14:40:23 <Laura> GreggVan: It is an example of a non web document
14:41:38 <Laura> Phil: separating these into two items, definition and note
14:42:07 <PhilDay> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Add definition for non-web documents to key terms: non-web document: document that is not a web page, not embedded in web pages nor used in the rendering or functioning of the page (as per EN 301 549, v3.2.1)
14:42:13 <loicmn> +1
14:42:17 <PhilDay> +1
14:42:21 <GreggVan> +1
14:42:23 <Laura> +1\
14:42:25 <Laura> +1
14:42:26 <Daniel> +1
14:42:33 <Daniel> s/\//
14:42:41 <PhilDay> RESOLUTION: Add definition for non-web documents to key terms: non-web document: document that is not a web page, not embedded in web pages nor used in the rendering or functioning of the page (as per EN 301 549, v3.2.1)
14:42:49 <Daniel> q+
14:42:55 <Laura> ack Daniel
14:42:57 <PhilDay> ack Daniel
14:45:12 <Laura> GreggVan: Remove the last sentence of the note. Add the "for example" comment
14:45:14 <PhilDay> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Remove last sentence of Bruce's new note in PR https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/883
14:45:39 <GreggVan> q+  to say "Note:  For clarity, if a document is downloaded from the web and distributed off the web it becomes a non-web document."
14:45:40 <Laura> +1
14:45:40 <PhilDay> +1
14:45:44 <GreggVan> +1
14:45:47 <loicmn> +1
14:45:54 <Daniel> +1
14:45:55 <PhilDay> RESOLUTION: Remove last sentence of Bruce's new note in PR https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/883
14:46:00 <PhilDay> ack GreggVan
14:46:00 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say "Note:  For clarity, if a document is downloaded from the web and distributed off the web it becomes a non-web document."
14:47:12 <GreggVan> "Note:  For clarity, if a document that is viewable on the web is downloaded from the web and distributed off the web it becomes a non-web document."
14:48:03 <PhilDay> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Add note to the definition of non-web document: "Note:  For clarity, if a document that is viewable on the web is downloaded from the web and distributed off the web it becomes a non-web document."
14:48:23 <loicmn> +1
14:48:26 <GreggVan> +1
14:48:28 <PhilDay> +1
14:48:29 <Daniel> +1
14:48:31 <Laura> +1
14:48:46 <PhilDay> RESOLUTION: Add note to the definition of non-web document: "Note:  For clarity, if a document that is viewable on the web is downloaded from the web and distributed off the web it becomes a non-web document."
14:49:19 <PhilDay> ACTION Laura to follow up with Bruce on changes to note for non-web documents
14:49:47 <Laura> zakim, next item
14:49:47 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Begin discussing content for new SCs from SC 2.3.2 onwards -- taken up [from PhilDay]
14:50:05 <PhilDay> TOPIC: 2.3.2 Three Flashes (Level AAA)
14:50:12 <PhilDay> Link to issue:  https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/548
14:50:37 <PhilDay> Applying SC 2.3.2 Three Flashes to non-web documents and non-web software
14:50:37 <PhilDay> This applies directly as written, and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 2.3.2, replacing “Web pages do not” with “non-web document or non-web software does not”.
14:50:37 <PhilDay> With these substitutions, it would read:
14:50:37 <PhilDay> [Non-web document or non-web software does not] contain anything that flashes more than three times in any one second period.
14:51:43 <Daniel> q+
14:52:05 <PhilDay> Proposed change from Gregg: Update to match latest style on headings & use of non-web software:
14:52:05 <PhilDay> Applying SC 2.3.2 Three Flashes to non-web documents and non-web software
14:52:05 <PhilDay> This applies directly as written, and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 2.3.2, replacing “Web pages do not” with “non-web document, or non-web software, does not”.
14:52:05 <PhilDay> With these substitutions, it would read:
14:52:07 <PhilDay> [Non-web document, or non-web software, does not] contain anything that flashes more than three times in any one second period.
14:52:11 <PhilDay> ack Daniel
14:53:10 <Laura> Daniel: why the comma?
14:53:57 <PhilDay> q+
14:54:00 <loicmn> q+ to say we should do the same in 2.3.1
14:54:31 <PhilDay> q?
14:55:08 <PhilDay> q?
14:55:11 <Daniel> e
14:55:13 <Daniel> q}
14:55:58 <Daniel> q+
14:56:03 <Daniel> s/q}//
14:56:18 <Laura> GreggVan: will not be commas everywhere but in certain situations may need commas to note that both are applicable.
14:56:26 <PhilDay> ack PhilDay
14:57:05 <PhilDay> [Non-web document does not] contain anything that flashes more than three times in any one second period.
14:57:05 <PhilDay> [Non-web software does not] contain anything that flashes more than three times in any one second period.
14:57:12 <PhilDay> q?
14:57:15 <PhilDay> ack Daniel
14:57:38 <Laura> Daniel: let's not get stuck on this. We can bring this to a colleague on this.
14:57:49 <PhilDay> q?
14:57:56 <PhilDay> ack loicmn
14:57:56 <Zakim> loicmn, you wanted to say we should do the same in 2.3.1
14:58:00 <GreggVan> q+   to sat     "non-web document does not" or "not-web software does not"
14:58:26 <PhilDay> ack GreggVan
14:58:26 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to sat     "non-web document does not" or "not-web software does not"
14:58:28 <Laura> Loismn: we have to do the same wording in 2.3.1 as it is same structure.
14:59:19 <PhilDay> q?
14:59:32 <Laura> rssagent, draft minutes
14:59:57 <loicmn> loicmn has left #wcag2ict
14:59:58 <Laura> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:00:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-wcag2ict-minutes.html Laura
15:02:17 <PhilDay> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-wcag2ict-minutes.html PhilDay
15:02:38 <PhilDay> zakim, end meeting
15:02:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been PhilDay, loicmn, Daniel, GreggVan, Laura
15:02:40 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:02:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
15:02:47 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, PhilDay; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:02:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:02:50 <PhilDay> rrsagent, bye
15:02:50 <RRSAgent> I see no action items