15:59:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:59:11 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-rdf-star-irc
15:59:11 <ktk> meeting: RDF-star WG meeting
15:59:20 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/11e4d020-9c58-4fff-83c5-37c9e2502295/20260416T120000/
15:59:20 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:59:20 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2026/04/09-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:59:20 <agendabot> agenda+ TAG Turtle family concerns, followup -> 2 https://github.com/w3ctag/meetings/blob/gh-pages/2026/telcons/03-16-minutes.md#design-reviews1161-wg-new-spec-rdf-12-n-triples-github---csarven  -> 3 https://github.com/w3ctag/meetings/blob/gh-pages/2026/telcons/03-30-minutes.md#design-reviews1161-
15:59:21 <agendabot> … wg-new-spec-rdf-12-n-triples-github---csarven  -> 4 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/127
15:59:23 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open PRs, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
15:59:23 <j22> scribe: j22
15:59:26 <agendabot> agenda+ Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 6 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8
15:59:26 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:59:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
15:59:29 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:59:29 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log public
15:59:52 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
16:00:10 <AndyS> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/04/09-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:00:10 <AndyS> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/04/23-data-shapes-minutes.html
16:00:17 <gtw> present+
16:00:17 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
16:00:23 <j22> present+
16:00:27 <ktk> present+
16:00:28 <Dominik_T> present+
16:00:54 <niklasl> present+
16:01:09 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
16:01:34 <lisp> lisp has joined #rdf-star
16:02:02 <pchampin> present+
16:02:07 <ktk> regrets+ AZ, william-vw
16:02:16 <TallTed> present+
16:02:23 <ora> present+
16:02:25 <olaf> present+
16:02:26 <ora> chair+
16:02:29 <lisp> present+
16:02:37 <j22phone> j22phone has joined #rdf-star
16:02:54 <j22phone> Hi my main internet just went down
16:03:08 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/mid/CAGqTOeda5LHd77dURz4X6BMJZL3OCFoq1k+zmeJRUd97mD-cLQ@mail.gmail.com
16:03:09 <j22phone> Scribing is not going to work
16:03:40 <ktk> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2026Apr/0019.html
16:03:48 <Tpt> present+
16:03:59 <AndyS> present+
16:04:34 <pfps> scribe+
16:04:52 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:04:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2026/04/09-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:58 <pfps> mintes look acceptable to me
16:05:10 <pfps> s/mintes/minutes/
16:05:13 <ora> PROPOSAL: Approve last week's minutes
16:05:14 <niklasl> +1
16:05:16 <pfps> +1
16:05:17 <ora> +1
16:05:18 <ktk> +1
16:05:22 <Dominik_T> +0 (not pressent)
16:05:29 <TallTed> +1
16:05:31 <j220> j220 has joined #rdf-star
16:05:33 <gtw> +1
16:05:39 <AndyS> +1
16:05:40 <j220> +1
16:05:50 <pchampin> +0 (absent)
16:06:05 <lisp> +1
16:06:09 <ora> RESOLVED: Approve last week's minutes
16:06:15 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:06:15 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- TAG Turtle family concerns, followup -> 2
16:06:16 <Zakim> ... https://github.com/w3ctag/meetings/blob/gh-pages/2026/telcons/03-16-minutes.md#design-reviews1161-wg-new-spec-rdf-12-n-triples-github---csarven  -> 3
16:06:16 <Zakim> ... https://github.com/w3ctag/meetings/blob/gh-pages/2026/telcons/03-30-minutes.md#design-reviews1161- -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:37 <pfps> ora: we received some concerns from the TAG
16:06:51 <pfps> ora: we discussed this in the chairs' meeting
16:07:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:07:29 <pfps> pchampin: the thing that I didn't see mentioned in last week's minutes is ...
16:07:31 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
16:07:39 <tl> present+
16:07:55 <pfps> pchampin: something that is in the conversation
16:08:24 <pfps> pchampin: we do not specify what happens when a parser encounters [syntax] it does not understand
16:08:50 <pfps> pchampin: their preference would be to give a new media type
16:09:02 <pfps> pchampin: I think that we should not do this
16:09:04 <ora> q+
16:09:08 <ora> ack ora
16:09:37 <pfps> ora: I'm not entirely sure I understand what the drawbacks are if we do not have a new media type
16:09:50 <pchampin> q+
16:09:50 <TallTed> q+ to ask for a more precise link for the second (3, above)
16:10:42 <pfps> ora: this appears to me to be a solution to a problem that may not exist at all
16:11:13 <pfps> ora: what bad thing is going to happen?
16:11:26 <ora> ack pchampin
16:12:06 <pfps> pchampin: the problem is limited to broken RDF documents
16:12:27 <pfps> pchampin: HTML systems are supposed to gracefully handle unknown syntax
16:12:42 <pfps> pchampin: RDF is different
16:13:07 <pfps> pchampin: the TAG appears to be OK with not having a new media type
16:13:29 <pfps> pchampin: so long as we acknowledge that there is an issue here
16:13:57 <pfps> pchampin: if an RDF parser drops triples then it is just missing some information
16:13:59 <pfps> q+
16:14:15 <ora> ack TallTed
16:14:15 <Zakim> TallTed, you wanted to ask for a more precise link for the second (3, above)
16:14:33 <pfps> pchampin: this is why there is no requirements on what a parser does when it sees unknown syntax
16:14:49 <pfps> TallTed: what are the links about?
16:15:04 <pfps> ktk: they are bits of minutes from several TAG meeting
16:15:39 <TallTed> https://github.com/w3ctag/meetings/blob/gh-pages/2026/telcons/03-30-minutes.md#design-reviews1161-wg-new-spec-rdf-12-n-triples-github---csarven
16:15:50 <ora> ack pfps
16:15:51 <j220> Scribe: j220
16:16:00 <pfps> TallTed: a better link is above
16:16:46 <niklasl> q+
16:16:51 <ora> ack niklasl
16:16:54 <j220> pfps: pchampin Points out that RDF is open, pfps: thinks that is not the case in reality. Systems might do something bad if a triple term is dropped on the floor
16:16:55 <pfps> pfps: the problem is that not all uses of RDF use the open world semantic
16:17:12 <pchampin> scribe+ pfps
16:17:17 <pfps> pfps: so dropping a triple on the floor could produce incorrect (not just imcomplete) results
16:17:51 <pfps> niklasl: we have mechanisms that make it easy for existing systems to do a right thing
16:18:24 <AndyS> q?
16:18:35 <AndyS> q+
16:19:00 <j220> q+
16:19:01 <pfps> niklasl: forward incompatability is inevitable
16:19:26 <pfps> niklasl: so maybe the way forward is to note the problem and move on
16:19:36 <ktk> regrets+ fsasaki
16:19:54 <ora> ack AndyS
16:19:54 <pfps> niklasl: breaking old clients with new data is a problem
16:20:17 <pfps> AndyS: the analogy with HTML is not exact because there is a human
16:20:26 <pfps> AndyS: RDF data is more consumed by machine
16:20:50 <pfps> AndyS: a robust application should read all the data before proceeding
16:21:45 <pfps> AndyS: there is the W3C position - that compatability is very important
16:21:50 <ora> ack j
16:21:50 <pchampin> +1 AndyS
16:21:58 <pfps> AndyS: there is the RDF position - that splitting would be painful
16:22:22 <TallTed> q+
16:22:24 <pfps> j: what happened with the new syntax in Turtle 1.1
16:22:48 <ora> ack TallTed
16:22:55 <pfps> AndyS: the change that had impact was strings being XSD strings
16:23:04 <AndyS> s/j:/j220:/
16:23:18 <pfps> TallTed: I don't recall any issues with the new prefix syntax, partly because the syntax was already in SPARQL
16:23:21 <AndyS> q+
16:24:16 <ora> ack AndyS
16:24:16 <pfps> TallTed: the old syntax still worked in both Turtle and SPARQL
16:24:42 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:24:52 <Souri> present+
16:24:55 <pfps> AndyS: the Turtle one is somewhat more complicated because Turtle 1.1 was the first Turtle
16:25:27 <pfps> AndyS: the new syntax has been specified for quite some time (5 years) and there are systems that already use it
16:25:45 <ora> q+
16:25:49 <ora> ack ora
16:25:51 <pfps> AndyS: the language direction has been sort of forced on us, and it has the same issues
16:26:26 <pfps> ora: the WG needs to make a decision
16:26:28 <tl> q+
16:26:29 <pfps> q+
16:26:33 <ora> ack tl
16:26:42 <AndyS> q+
16:26:54 <pfps> tl: does having a new media type mean a new name and a new file extension?
16:26:58 <ora> ack pfps
16:27:15 <ora> ack AndyS
16:27:24 <pfps> pfps: along with making a decision we need to document and explain it in the Turtle spec
16:27:50 <pfps> AndyS: maybe something needs to go into Concepts
16:28:26 <pfps> AndyS: yes to tl - there likely needs to be these new things
16:29:03 <pfps> AndyS: file extensions make a difference in systems
16:29:18 <pfps> pfps: some servers might have to be changed to allow the new media type
16:29:21 <j220> q+
16:29:40 <ora> ack j
16:29:40 <pfps> ora: it seems to me that splitting the world has considerable implications
16:30:19 <pfps> j220: if what we want is that no parser does something wrong then what about RDF/XML
16:30:28 <pfps> AndyS: RDF/X
16:30:28 <niklasl> q+
16:30:48 <pfps> AndyS: RDF/XML has its own issues, especially ITS
16:31:38 <pfps> j220: for RDF/XML a parser might get different triples, not just fewer
16:32:06 <ora> ack niklasl
16:32:15 <pfps> AndyS: there are implications with streaming large documents
16:32:54 <pfps> niklasl: RDF/XML has to be a special case because of the details of RDF/X
16:33:33 <pfps> AndyS: there are unusual aspects of RDF/XML that have to be taken into account
16:33:52 <pfps> ora: let's do a straw poll
16:33:57 <ora> STRAWPOLL: "Splitting the world" via media-types and file extensions is unacceptable
16:34:02 <niklasl> +1
16:34:02 <ora> +1
16:34:03 <pchampin> +1
16:34:04 <ktk> +1
16:34:05 <j220> +1
16:34:06 <Tpt> +1
16:34:08 <lisp> +1
16:34:09 <Dominik_T> +0.9
16:34:10 <pfps> +1
16:34:11 <olaf> +1
16:34:12 <gtw> +1
16:34:13 <Souri> +1
16:34:14 <AndyS> +1
16:34:34 <TallTed> +1 with regret
16:34:51 <pfps> ora: that seems definitive
16:35:43 <niklasl> q+
16:35:44 <pfps> TallTed: I wish there was a way for 1.2 software to have to treat documents as 1.1 if there is no version
16:35:53 <pfps> ora: there is no simple answer
16:36:01 <Dominik_T> assume `media type = type "/" subtype [ ";" parameter ]*`, changing `type` and/or `subtype` - no, changing `parameter` possibly yes
16:36:20 <pfps> ora: I worry about new media types, etc., in the RDF ecosystem
16:36:47 <pfps> TallTed: consider CSS :-)
16:36:57 <tl> +0 (belatedly)
16:37:02 <pfps> ora: here is a proposal
16:37:21 <ora> PROPOSAL: "Splitting the world" via media-types and file extensions is unacceptable
16:37:25 <ora> +1
16:37:25 <j220> +1
16:37:27 <gtw> +1
16:37:27 <pchampin> +1
16:37:29 <niklasl> +1
16:37:31 <ktk> +1
16:37:31 <olaf> +1
16:37:33 <pfps> ora: then the chairs+ will meet with the tag next Tuesday
16:37:35 <TallTed> +1
16:37:36 <tl> +0
16:37:42 <Souri> +1
16:37:45 <Dominik_T> +0.9
16:37:55 <AndyS> +1 -- and would like to see general text somewhere that makes this clear
16:37:55 <pfps> +1, with the provisio that no matter what there needs to be something in the documents
16:37:58 <lisp> +1
16:38:25 <niklasl> What about the text already in
16:38:26 <niklasl> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-turtle/#sec-version
16:38:27 <pfps> AndyS: it might be that part of the problem is that we were not adequately clear
16:38:29 <ora> RESOLVED: "Splitting the world" via media-types and file extensions is unacceptable
16:38:52 <Dominik_T> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:38:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-rdf-star-minutes.html Dominik_T
16:39:00 <pfps> ora: OK, we will take this to the TAG
16:39:09 <pfps> ora: we might be in good shape
16:39:13 <lisp> q+
16:39:22 <ora> ack niklasl
16:40:02 <ora> ack lisp
16:40:06 <pfps> niklasl: there is this section in the document about 1.1 vs 1.2 and negotiation
16:40:12 <pchampin> q+
16:40:17 <ora> ack pchampin
16:40:39 <pfps> pchampin: should we take an action to add clarifying text (somewhere)?
16:40:59 <pfps> ora: do we have a volunteer for this?
16:41:02 <niklasl> +1 to that (in concepts, refering to e.g. that turtle section)
16:41:33 <pfps> AndyS: what we do might depend on talking to the TAG
16:41:58 <pfps> ora: we could go to the TAG and say that we will add clarifying language
16:42:06 <pfps> pchampin: sounds acceptable
16:42:09 <niklasl> I _think_ the relevant TAG questions are: 1) "If they reject new syntax, that's like CSS. But in an RDF context, maybe that's the wrong behavior.", and 2) "how changeable the parsers are in the wild." ...
16:42:39 <pfps> ora: regrets for me for next week's meeting
16:42:44 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:42:44 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of open PRs, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:43:23 <pfps> AndyS: what about i18n inputs?
16:43:31 <pfps> ora: will this come up in the TAG?
16:43:52 <pfps> ora: let's do PRs first
16:44:39 <pfps> AndyS: nquads is editorial and small
16:44:42 <pfps> ora: do it
16:45:07 <pfps> ora: what else?
16:45:42 <pfps> ora: what's the problem with named graphs no longer recent
16:46:04 <pfps> TellTed: the text refers to named graphs as "recent"
16:46:27 <AndyS> s/TellTed:/TallTed:/
16:46:32 <pfps> ora: why did the check fail
16:46:41 <pfps> pchampin: I'm looking at that
16:47:07 <pfps> TallTed: I suggest an empty commit to cause a rerun
16:47:30 <pfps> ora: where are we with tests?
16:48:26 <pfps> AndyS: line item 14 is a draft to cover surrogate pairs
16:49:01 <pfps> AndyS: some parsers let them through, some do not
16:49:41 <pfps> ora: so we need to wait on that one
16:49:45 <pfps> AndyS: yes
16:50:05 <pfps> ora: what about the others?
16:50:37 <pfps> ora: what is a d-note
16:50:45 <pfps> pchampin: draft note
16:51:51 <pfps> pchampin: what about short names?
16:51:55 <pfps> ora: ok
16:52:22 <pfps> pchampin: there are versioned short names (1.1., etc) and non-versioned short names
16:53:01 <pfps> pchampin: non-versioned short names are handled differently by different WGs
16:53:21 <pfps> pchampin: we decided to have non-versioned short names only point to recommendations
16:53:38 <Dominik_T> s/\(not pressent\)/(not present)/
16:53:51 <pfps> pchampin: it was suggested to also have this when there is a CR
16:54:04 <pfps> pchampin: I support this change
16:54:17 <pfps> ora: the CRs point to the previous REC?
16:54:27 <pfps> pchampin: yes
16:54:37 <pfps> ora: seems reasonable
16:54:40 <lisp> q+
16:54:44 <pfps> ora: any objections
16:54:45 <ora> ack lisp
16:55:19 <pchampin> q+
16:55:30 <pfps> lisp: I'm more interested in consistency, so that non-versioned short names should switch all at once
16:55:33 <ora> ack pchampin
16:55:35 <AndyS> q+
16:56:15 <pfps> pchampin: that would be a change compared to what the WG has adopted
16:56:40 <pfps> lisp: yes, but let's not confused naive users
16:57:10 <pfps> pchampin: what is the scope here?  all RDF? all SPARQL?
16:57:22 <pfps> lisp: all the documents of the WG
16:57:23 <ora> ack AndyS
16:57:50 <pfps> AndyS: I lean towards CR being adequate and consider RDF and SPARQL different
16:58:10 <pfps> AndyS: I am slightly hesitant about making the change now because of the TAG issue
16:58:36 <lisp> q+
16:58:40 <pfps> AndyS: if non-versioned short names point to a CR document it should be stable
16:58:45 <ora> ack lisp
16:58:48 <pfps> ora: let's defer to next week
16:58:53 <TallTed> q+
16:59:10 <pfps> lisp: I had heard that a 1.1 client could request only 1.1 content
16:59:40 <pfps> lisp: I don't see that in the document
16:59:49 <niklasl> q+
17:00:00 <pfps> AndyS: isn't that what profile gives you?
17:00:14 <niklasl> Accept: text/turtle; version=1.2
17:00:31 <pfps> lisp: The Turtle document should mention that
17:00:40 <pfps> AndyS: yes
17:00:42 <ora> ack TallTed
17:00:43 <j220> s/j220/j22/G
17:00:53 <pfps> TallTed: how can I eavesdrop on the TAG meeting
17:00:55 <ora> ack niklasl
17:01:00 <pfps> ora: we will provide that information
17:01:20 <pfps> niklasl: the example with the GET request should be clarified
17:01:53 <pfps> niklasl: "a server that receives an accept without a version should not expect anything from the client and should be conservative."
17:02:18 <pfps> lisp: that's fine, but it should be mentioned
17:02:27 <Dominik_T> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-rdf-star-minutes.html Dominik_T
17:02:35 <pfps> ora: thanks all
17:02:35 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:02:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:02:42 <niklasl> I'm also happy to report something we *don't* need to address on our own: my (year-old) "fix dark mode for stuff" PR on respec got merged this week: https://github.com/speced/respec/pull/4925#event-24421876933  :)
17:02:43 <gb> https://github.com/speced/respec/pull/4925 -> MERGED Pull Request 4925 Support dark mode toggle for SVGs and highlight.js (by niklasl)
17:02:48 <pfps> ora: SPARQL tomorrow?
17:02:49 <Dominik_T> s/\(not pressent\)/\(not present\)/
17:03:00 <pfps> AndyS: yes, but no agenda
17:03:00 <Dominik_T> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:03:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-rdf-star-minutes.html Dominik_T
17:03:09 <pfps> regrets for more for tomorrow
17:03:13 <pfps> s/more/me/
17:03:52 <pchampin> i/there are versioned short names/topic: policy for version-less short names
17:03:54 <pfps> AndyS: let's skip the meeting tomorrow
17:03:55 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:03:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:04:02 <olaf> Skipping tomorrow is fine from my side.
17:04:07 <pfps> pfps has left #rdf-star
17:04:37 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star