14:38:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pmwg-a11y
14:38:15 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-pmwg-a11y-irc
14:38:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pmwg-a11y
14:38:39 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pmwg-a11y
14:38:39 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:38:53 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:39:00 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:39:53 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Conclusion of Issue 2968: WCAG 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation in reflowable EPUB?
14:40:13 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Continue refinement of FXL accessibility documents.
14:40:33 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Issue 2980: SC 1.4.10 Reflow applicability to EPUB Fixed Layout publications
14:40:52 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
15:02:09 <wendyreid> present+
15:02:27 <gpellegrino> present+
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15:05:52 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:06:00 <gpellegrino> scribe+
15:06:09 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:06:09 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Conclusion of Issue 2968: WCAG 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation in reflowable EPUB? -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:06:38 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2968
15:06:44 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Conclusion of issue 2968, in last meeting we discussed, we also talked about Charles going through SMART and pull out WCAG SC that don't apply to EPUB well
15:06:58 <wendyreid> ... there's some further discussion in the issue, what are the next steps?
15:07:38 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Charles learned there are no excluded SCs, from there I made a list with my colleagues
15:08:08 <wendyreid> ... listing the SCs that if they fail, they are edge cases, in most cases they always pass for reflow EPUBs
15:08:42 <wendyreid> ... those SC 1.3.4 orientation, 1.3.2 meaningful sequence, 1.4.10 reflow, 3.2.6 consistent help, and other SCs in 3, redundant entry and accessible auth
15:09:14 <wendyreid> ... we discussed a bit with Matt, we clarified is what I was thinking was having some kind of guidance on how these SC apply to EPUB
15:09:14 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #pmwg-a11y
15:09:20 <wendyreid> ... listing the edge cases for content creators or evaluators
15:09:36 <wendyreid> ... we could add this information to understanding for WCAG
15:09:36 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:09:46 <wendyreid> ... but we can put this in our techniques document forn ow
15:09:52 <wendyreid> s/forn ow/for now/
15:10:11 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: I think this is all on Matt's side then, what kind of clarification can we provide
15:10:33 <wendyreid> mgarrish: You can explain to people that it's unlikely to find issues, that's what SMART does
15:10:38 <wendyreid> ... there's always a chance
15:10:49 <wendyreid> ... generally you're looking for the usual things
15:10:51 <wendyreid> q+
15:11:08 <wendyreid> mgarrish: You don't need to spend time looking for issues that aren't likely to be there
15:11:19 <wendyreid> ... we'll need to figure out how to wordsmith this stuff
15:11:29 <wendyreid> ... SCs that technically still apply, but aren't common
15:11:36 <gpellegrino> q+
15:11:53 <wendyreid> ... we can say in the techniques document, since its a note, to highlight challenges
15:12:24 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: For completion's sake we can help share this. A new generation of professionals might find it helpful
15:13:07 <wendyreid> mgarrish: There is always the temptation with ebooks to say it won't apply, people wanted to exclude it in EPUB/WCAG, but it doesn't make sense.
15:13:21 <wendyreid> ... in specific ecosystems it may not apply, but not globally
15:14:04 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:14:08 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: We are in an EPUB world that is big, need guidance.
15:14:41 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: the FXL document we made a list of the most significant SCs...
15:15:39 <gpellegrino> ... maybe in the EPUB accessibility techniques document we may have the other way around, telling what is less probable to appear in reflowable EPUBs
15:15:52 <gpellegrino> ... like authentication, error messages, etc.
15:15:59 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:16:33 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: In response to Matt, agree that writing this text may be problematic, at the same time we refer to the understanding docs in WCAG, in those there are a lot of exemptions
15:16:55 <wendyreid> ... things that don't fall into the SCs, relative to specific contexts, example in images of text as a helpful comparison
15:17:08 <wendyreid> ... it's not that we go beyond WCAG, but give examples where things apply or don't
15:17:34 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I don't think that's problematic, my concern was advising people not to pay attention to some SCs.
15:18:00 <wendyreid> ... a lot of web pages fall outside of SCs too, but if we come out and say "oh don't worry about x" will cause a reaction
15:18:26 <wendyreid> ... no issue with us saying in our document that "this is an edge case but may apply if..."
15:18:41 <wendyreid> ... providing some examples to help them understand when something does apply
15:19:14 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: We're all aligned now, give specific use cases and examples, help them understand what applies
15:19:23 <wendyreid> ... Matt can start drafting something for review
15:19:29 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:19:52 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Matt, if you need help, discussing edge cases or anything, let me know
15:20:04 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I'll take some of what I have in the SMART tool and adapt it for this
15:20:10 <wendyreid> ... don't have to start from scratch
15:20:19 <wendyreid> ... I'll start writing up some guidelines
15:20:37 <wendyreid> ... I know you can do some things, there are cases out there I'm sure
15:20:47 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:20:47 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Continue refinement of FXL accessibility documents. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:21:06 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Let's talk about further improvements to the FXL documents
15:21:09 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/wg-notes/fxl-a11y-tech/
15:21:14 <wendyreid> ... the PR is merged, now we can propose new improvements
15:21:17 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:21:32 <gpellegrino> q+
15:21:44 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:21:52 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Just to double check, from what I have seen, the PR addressed some of the things we raised
15:21:58 <wendyreid> ... there are also other issues open
15:22:11 <wendyreid> ... there are plans for other PRs
15:22:35 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: yes, I've only closed the issued directly addressed by the PR
15:22:48 <gpellegrino> ... there are others that I have to check
15:23:25 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3ASpec-FXL-A11y
15:24:00 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:24:26 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: As far as the issue tracker is concerned, we've discussed, next step is PRs
15:25:53 <wendyreid> ... will add the meeting minutes to the appropriate issues
15:26:18 <wendyreid> ... do you need any help?
15:27:40 <wendyreid> wendyreid: If Gregorio can take the tables one, I'll do everything else as a navigation edit
15:27:47 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, n ext agendum
15:27:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'n ext agendum', AvneeshSingh
15:27:57 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:27:57 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Issue 2980: SC 1.4.10 Reflow applicability to EPUB Fixed Layout publications -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:28:34 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2980
15:28:39 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Gregorio, can you provide background ?
15:28:47 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: 1.4.10 reflow is a AA criteria
15:29:29 <wendyreid> ... it requires that content can be presented without loss of information if the viewport is reduced in size, within specific requirements
15:30:19 <wendyreid> ... exceptions include 2 dimensional content that requires layout to be understandable, such as images, video games, interfaces requiring toolbars, two dimensional scrolling is permitted
15:31:02 <wendyreid> ... FXL viewport is defined by the content creator, the user cannot change the viewport of the content, so the content cannot understand the change and reflow
15:31:33 <wendyreid> ... it's nearly impossible to make reflow possible, so most FXL content would fall into the exemption
15:31:49 <wendyreid> ... I opened this issue because we had not determined a clear answer
15:31:54 <wendyreid> ... potentially to raise this to AG
15:33:19 <mgarrish> q+
15:33:25 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:33:28 <wendyreid> ... there is a potential future technique in the understanding document for content like PDFs, we have a reference for how FXL can meet  1.4.10 using current technology
15:33:38 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I think this is one of those difficult ones
15:33:58 <wendyreid> ... it's been thrown in with reflow, its not 100% clear about two dimensional layout being fixed
15:34:27 <wendyreid> ... what they intend is that there is no way to alter the content without impairing understanding
15:34:41 <wendyreid> ... FXL content can't be reshuffled without loss of information
15:34:57 <wendyreid> ... that's the kind of content that falls into the exemption
15:35:03 <wendyreid> ... you can't break content in half
15:35:11 <wendyreid> ... without losing the meaning
15:35:20 <gpellegrino> q+
15:35:32 <wendyreid> ... it's stuff like recipe books where you're representing page layout but it's not essential for content understanding
15:35:39 <wendyreid> ... that's where two dimensions don't matter
15:36:00 <wendyreid> ... the problem with EPUB of course,  I don't think any reading system will let you break it up, change the layout
15:36:04 <wendyreid> ... q+
15:36:06 <wendyreid> q+
15:36:10 <wendyreid> s/q+//
15:36:30 <wendyreid> mgarrish: If you're choosing FXL for non-essential reasons, you're choosing to be inaccesible
15:36:38 <wendyreid> ... we don't have the ability with FXL right now
15:36:42 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:36:59 <wendyreid> ... only alternative is taking it to a browser to read outside of the EPUB context
15:37:08 <wendyreid> ... there's FXL content that is exempt, but not all of it
15:37:16 <wendyreid> ... determining what is hard too
15:37:31 <wendyreid> ... we could go to AG to be clearer about it
15:37:44 <wendyreid> ... is it any page layout or just the page layout
15:37:52 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:37:57 <gpellegrino> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/reflow.html
15:38:00 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: The understanding of 1.4.10 is super long
15:38:45 <wendyreid> ... at one point in there, there is this concept of even if the content doesn't reflow, but you're able to zoom, and to access the content without scrolling in two dimensions, only vertically/horizontally, then the SC is met
15:38:54 <wendyreid> ... that may be an interesting approach for FXL
15:39:12 <wendyreid> ... if your content is atomic enough to be viewable as a scroll in one direction
15:39:16 <wendyreid> ... you meet the SC
15:39:25 <wendyreid> ... maybe asking for clarification for this can help
15:39:32 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: What about mobile?
15:39:43 <wendyreid> ... that arrangement may work for desktop but not mobile
15:40:03 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: The idea is that enlarging up to 200% does not result in loss of content
15:40:04 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:43:19 <gpellegrino> +1
15:43:45 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: we partially discussed this into our document
15:44:58 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #pmwg-a11y
15:45:13 <CharlesL> present+
15:45:16 <wendyreid> ... we had some ideas around making FXL reflowable, and what to do, but a lot of it falls to reading systems
15:45:30 <jgriggs_prh> present+
15:45:42 <wendyreid> ... in short, we can be clearer, but we don't have to be, I do think the understanding docs are clear enough
15:47:00 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: My question really is, given the SC, since its technically impossible at the moment, if there is no understanding on how to do it, is it possible? What do we say
15:47:11 <wendyreid> ... basically, a FXL can never be AA compliant
15:47:22 <wendyreid> wendyreid: We should say that
15:47:28 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: In the EPUB world we should be honest
15:47:38 <wendyreid> ... we should say clearly where it can be met and where it can't
15:48:27 <gpellegrino> q+
15:48:50 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: yes, I think we have to be very clear
15:49:16 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:49:23 <gpellegrino> ... in our document, when we published the note, it was before EAA and we were not that clear
15:50:11 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Just to be super clear, we recently helped a publisher make a FXL accessible, we were able to meet all the SCs, even text resize, not many RS supported, but it was possible, the only impossible one was 1.4.10
15:50:21 <wendyreid> ... given the limitations of the format
15:50:49 <wendyreid> ... I think we have to be really clear in the document that there are a lot of SCs that are challenging, but the only one that is technically impossible is 1.4.10
15:51:01 <wendyreid> ... we will one day need a solution to it
15:51:09 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: We should be incubating solutions for it
15:51:09 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:51:28 <wendyreid> wendyreid: I can draft something to address it
15:51:33 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: AOB?
15:52:30 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
15:52:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-pmwg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
15:52:41 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
15:53:30 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
15:53:30 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, wendyreid, gpellegrino, CharlesL, jgriggs_prh
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