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16:59:31 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-aria-irc
16:59:31 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:59:32 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:59:35 <spectranaut_> chair: ValerieYoung
16:59:39 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
16:59:39 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
16:59:40 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/690d057f-db6d-4169-b13f-68d7f1336b59/20260416T130000/
16:59:40 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:59:40 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/mse38et2
16:59:40 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-04-09+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
16:59:43 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
16:59:45 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:59:48 <agendabot> agenda+ ARIA in HTML for revised recommendation, please have your AC reps vote
16:59:51 <agendabot> agenda+ -> CSS scroll-marker-group modes && WAI-ARIA patterns https://github.com/w3c/css-aam/issues/18
16:59:54 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Updates to aside element https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues/411
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17:01:52 <Adam> present+
17:01:54 <aardrian> present+
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17:02:13 <Daniel> present+
17:02:19 <Francis_Storr> present+
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17:02:35 <pkra> present+
17:02:42 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:02:42 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:03:09 <pkra> scribe+
17:03:17 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:03:17 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/mse38et2 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:03:17 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:03:21 <Siri> Siri has joined #aria
17:04:02 <pkra> spectranaut_: html-aam 604. li outside list
17:04:36 <pkra> pkra: it would be great if implementors could implement this change
17:04:51 <pkra> spectranaut_: right. looks like we have a bunch of these.
17:05:15 <keithamus> q+
17:05:34 <pkra> scotto: was wondering about this. Conversation with chrome engineer, that they do look at WPTs and track failing ones to deal with.
17:05:42 <pkra> ... but of course the WPT has not been merged either.
17:05:50 <pkra> ... still, it would be good if we only need one.
17:05:55 <pkra> ... WPT or browser bugs.
17:06:14 <spectranaut_> ack keithamus
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17:06:35 <katez> present+
17:06:37 <pkra> keithamus: just to say: there's a lot of WPTs and a lot of failure and thus a lot of noise for teams, at least for us.
17:06:52 <pkra> ... so it's worth filing a separate issue to make sure it's surfaced with the right team
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17:07:18 <pkra> scotto: thanks for clarifying!
17:07:21 <melsumner> present+
17:08:04 <pkra> spectranaut_: if you're interested, we could set up a deep dive for people who want to learn filing browser bugs.
17:08:31 <pkra> ... though I wonder why the WPT test isn't merged.
17:08:49 <pkra> cyns: maybe we should have separate processes for different browsers.
17:09:10 <pkra> keithamus: I suspect they're similar though.
17:09:42 <pkra> dgrogan: we have the same firehose problem as firefox. If you can find the automated WPT bugs and ping it, that would be sufficient.
17:09:52 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:09:55 <pkra> spectranaut_: I'll look into landing the WPT PR.
17:10:34 <pkra> keithamus: I think WebKit doesn't have automatic bugs for WPT failures.
17:10:51 <pkra> spectranaut_: aria 2767. listbox and accname
17:11:40 <giacomo-petri> q+
17:11:56 <pkra> scotto: listboxes as popups often don't have accessible names. I haven't seen anyone being impacted by this. I don't think testing flags it since combobox names cover it. Conversations with other developers made me wonder if this requirement should be more nuanced.
17:12:14 <pkra> ack giacomo-petri
17:12:16 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
17:12:21 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:12:28 <Stefan> present+
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17:13:05 <pkra> giacomo-petri: to echo what scotto said. Our tool triggers an error for this kind of scenario and I agree with Scott that this change would negatively impact users.
17:13:06 <CurtBellew> present+
17:13:37 <giacomo-petri> q+
17:13:50 <pkra> scotto: I'm not sure how this works from the automatic table generation code in the spec. so maybe not a great first issue.
17:15:19 <pkra> pkra: there's a wider issue on handling more nuanced requirements in the automation. I think it's a good first issue in that we editors should work out the automation.
17:15:26 <pkra> ... I'll tag the issue that reflects this.
17:15:27 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
17:15:50 <pkra> giacomo-petri: just fyi, I think the suggestion role and separator are cases.
17:17:25 <pkra> mattking: I'm wondering if this kind of situation should also look into accname, i.e., whether this should affect calculation.
17:17:33 <pkra> melsumner: I can take it on.
17:17:42 <scott> scott has joined #aria
17:17:52 <scott> present+
17:17:56 <pkra> bryan: me too.
17:18:06 <pkra> spectranaut_: next up css-aam 17.
17:18:24 <pkra> aardrian: I just wanted to flag it quickly so it's not lost.
17:18:34 <pkra> spectranaut_: should we agenda it?
17:18:48 <pkra> aardrian: I'm not sure anymore.
17:18:58 <pkra> ... but I assigned myself to update.
17:19:01 <pkra> spectranaut_: great.
17:19:18 <pkra> ... next graphics-aria 14
17:21:40 <pkra> pkra: I just wanted to put this down. inspired by recent svg-aam text discussions and longtime on my mind.
17:21:48 <pkra> cyns: assign to me so we can track as well.
17:22:02 <pkra> spectranaut_: next aria 2762
17:23:46 <pkra> pkra: it's a bit of a mismatch. Definition doesn't suggest any specific way to connect to term. Term suggest something. We should clarify, probably a good first issue.
17:25:04 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:25:04 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-04-09+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:25:04 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:25:11 <pkra> spectranaut_: just one from peter
17:25:18 <pkra> pkra: still a draft. I'm working on it.
17:25:28 <pkra> zakim, close this item
17:25:28 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:25:29 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:25:29 <Zakim> 3. -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y [from agendabot]
17:25:36 <pkra> zakim, take up item 4
17:25:36 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:25:36 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:25:47 <pkra> spectranaut_: nothing new.
17:25:52 <pkra> zakim, close this item.
17:25:52 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
17:25:53 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:25:53 <Zakim> 3. -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y [from agendabot]
17:25:59 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:25:59 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:25:59 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:26:12 <pkra> zakim, close this item.
17:26:12 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:26:13 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:26:13 <Zakim> 5. ARIA in HTML for revised recommendation, please have your AC reps vote [from agendabot]
17:26:14 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:26:15 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- ARIA in HTML for revised recommendation, please have your AC reps vote -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:26:28 <pkra> spectranaut_: just a reminder to please ask your AC rep to vote.
17:26:40 <pkra> zakim, close this item.
17:26:40 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
17:26:41 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:26:41 <Zakim> 6. -> CSS scroll-marker-group modes && WAI-ARIA patterns https://github.com/w3c/css-aam/issues/18 [from agendabot]
17:26:42 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:26:42 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> CSS scroll-marker-group modes && WAI-ARIA patterns https://github.com/w3c/css-aam/issues/18 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:26:42 <github-bot> I can't comment on that github issue because it's not in a repository I'm allowed to comment on, which are: w3c/aria w3c/aria-common w3c/core-aam w3c/accname w3c/html-aam.
17:27:29 <pkra> daniil: to recap, CSS scroll-markers were introduced, in particular for native carousels.
17:27:41 <pkra> ... this is our update after feedback from the ARIA WG
17:27:59 <pkra> ... in my explainer I compared the two modes for scroll-marker-groups.
17:28:11 <pkra> ... the first one is tab mode. the second links mode.
17:28:49 <pkra> ... I would suggest to go through the explainer a bit.
17:29:22 <pkra> ... or wait until people have read it?
17:29:34 <pkra> dgrogan: could you live share some demos perhaps?
17:30:20 <pkra> daniil: yes. First one is tabs mode.
17:30:42 <pkra> ... one page of the carousel is one tab. Only the active tab is present in the acc tree.
17:30:58 <pkra> ... this was one change - browsers should now auto-hide it.
17:31:08 <pkra> ... here's a codepen demo
17:31:37 <pkra> ... I can tab to get to the first marker. then left/right arrows moves through the tabs.
17:31:58 <pkra> ... in the a11y tree you can see that only the active tab is in the tree.
17:32:12 <pkra> ... when we're at the marker, we go from the marker to content.
17:32:40 <pkra> ... but another tab won't take you to the next tab but out of the group.
17:32:53 <pkra> ... the second one is links mode
17:33:13 <pkra> ... in this mode, every scroll marker is a tab stop. They act like a focusgroup.
17:33:28 <pkra> ... another codepen demo
17:33:47 <pkra> ... we go to the first link. Tab moves me through the links.
17:33:58 <pkra> ... activation moves me to the content.
17:34:43 <pkra> ... just to recap, we discussed aria-current a while back and it's out of scope for this explainer.
17:34:47 <pkra> spectranaut_: thank you.
17:34:47 <spectranaut_> q?
17:35:10 <cyns> q+
17:35:36 <pkra> mattking: I will need to read the explainer but it sounds like the first case is very similar to tabpanel behavior so I hope we can align there.
17:35:41 <Siri> +1 to Matt
17:36:05 <pkra> daniil: we followed the tabbed carousel pattern.
17:36:10 <pkra> mattking: great.
17:36:17 <spectranaut_> ack cyn
17:36:22 <pkra> daniil: the links case is from the landmark navigation pattern.
17:36:38 <scott> q+
17:36:42 <pkra> cyns: there was a proposal a few years back from Google on a customized tab panel.
17:36:52 <pkra> ... is this a continuation of that?
17:37:09 <pkra> daniil: I don't know but don't think so. This sounds like HTML but here we are talking about CSS
17:37:10 <spectranaut_> ack scott
17:37:17 <pkra> scotto: I think it's definitely different.
17:38:30 <pkra> ... it sounds like a lot of the feedback Sarah H, Sara S, myself and others provided is being considered.
17:38:35 <pkra> ... I would suggest to please update the codepen to include focusable content. Otherwise it's not as clear what the keyboard behavior would be.
17:38:42 <spectranaut_> q?
17:38:44 <pkra> ... it will take me a while to take a look.
17:39:04 <pkra> mattking: I'd second that. Also something before and after to make it easier for AT users.
17:39:14 <pkra> daniil: thanks, will do.
17:39:39 <sakhapov> Rob's examples - https://flackr.github.io/web-demos/css-overflow/scroll-marker-type/
17:39:43 <pkra> spectranaut_: it would be great if many people could take a look.
17:39:58 <cyns> I think this is the proposal I was talking about https://css.oddbird.net/toggles/explainer/
17:40:07 <pkra> ... do people know how to take a look? E.g. get chrome canary and activate experimental features.
17:40:08 <dgrogan> chrome:://flags
17:40:16 <dgrogan> oops. chrome://flags
17:40:33 <sakhapov> chrome://flags/#enable-experimental-web-platform-features
17:41:12 <pkra> mattking: yes more details for testing would be great. Also in the issue itsef.
17:41:41 <pkra> spectranaut_: right. that would be good.
17:43:12 <pkra> siri: regarding link mode. tab mode makes sense. But also in the linked mode arrow keys is the expected way?
17:43:43 <pkra> daniil: for links you just tab through them.
17:43:51 <pkra> siri: but in the example I thought I had to
17:44:01 <pkra> daniil: for me arrow navigation doesn't work.
17:44:15 <pkra> siri: curious, it's different for me. I'll look into it.
17:44:35 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:44:35 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> Updates to aside element https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues/411 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:44:35 <github-bot> I can't comment on that github issue because it's not in a repository I'm allowed to comment on, which are: w3c/aria w3c/aria-common w3c/core-aam w3c/accname w3c/html-aam.
17:45:31 <Daniel> q+
17:45:42 <pkra> spectranaut_: there was a recent comment from APG putting it on the agenda.
17:46:14 <pkra> Daniel: from APG user research, chrome and firefox mark aside as complimentary in header and footer. But spec says only main and body, unless named.
17:46:37 <pkra> ... we should either match implementations or file bugs.
17:46:50 <pkra> spectranaut_: this is testable already, right?
17:46:56 <pkra> scotto: there are tests from 2023.
17:47:09 <pkra> mattking: I don't think we need to re-discuss. Browsers are just not doing it.
17:47:36 <pkra> scotto: looking through the tests from 2021. In 2023 James Craig commented on updated tests.
17:47:52 <pkra> ... there's a lingering PR of mine that just wasn't merged.
17:47:57 <pkra> ... due to the implementation mismatch.
17:48:17 <pkra> spectranaut_: I'll look at WPT tests and follow up - unless someone else wants to.
17:48:37 <pkra> mattking: sounds good. Daniel?
17:48:57 <pkra> Daniel: yes. It sounds good to update tests to get things moving.
17:49:24 <pkra> mattking: we have a PR in APG to say the same thing that html-aam says. But then we noticed the discrepancies and thus wanted to clarify.
17:49:41 <pkra> ... which brings us back to the start of the meeting.
17:49:45 <pkra> spectranaut_: agreed.
17:49:48 <pkra> zakim, end meeting
17:49:48 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Adam, aardrian, Daniel, Francis_Storr, pkra, giacomo-petri, filippo-zorzi, katez, melsumner, Stefan, CurtBellew, scott
17:49:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:49:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/16-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:49:59 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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