15:53:08 RRSAgent has joined #aria-at 15:53:12 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/04/08-aria-at-irc 15:53:12 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:53:13 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King 15:54:28 MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group 15:54:47 CHAIR: Matt King 15:54:52 present+ 16:00:20 nickcook has joined #aria-at 16:02:24 loren has joined #aria-at 16:04:32 Joe_Humbert has joined #aria-at 16:05:21 cyns has joined #aria-at 16:07:20 TOPIC: Review agenda and next meeting dates 16:07:32 scribe+ 16:07:50 lizzzz has joined #aria-at 16:08:20 Next meeting will be on April 22 at the usual time 16:08:49 agenda https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/April-8%2C-2026-Agenda 16:09:17 topic: Current interop reporting status 16:10:30 mk: I already moved the plans in CR to google sheet about meetings with AT vendors 16:10:32 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pvnIOTpbR5QtFIW7IvXTpIJsCEgeSmhbcefVbg00bpM/edit?usp=sharing) 16:10:43 mk: 5 plans in draft review, 2 active 16:11:10 Siri has joined #aria-at 16:11:28 mk: want to get simple data grid into draft review, blocked by netlify issue (https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1363)) 16:12:11 Nicholas cook: I tried to look at the issue. Needs someone with access to Netlify 16:12:22 mk: will ask Daniel or others from w3c team to look into it 16:12:51 TOPIC: Celebrate Windows bot fix! 16:13:39 mk: windows bots have been down since December, Nicholas fixed, Chris merged, Matt tested. Thank you Nicholas! 16:14:12 Nicholas Cage: Thanks also to Westin from Assistive Labs 16:14:26 present+ 16:21:08 TOPIC: Execution of quantity spin button test plan 16:21:12 present+ 16:21:55 test plan * Current version: [Quantity Spin Button Example Test Plan V25.12.16](https://aria-at.w3.org/test-review/163676) 16:22:07 mk: joe is signed up to test JAWS, need another JAWS tester 16:24:02 MK asks Hadi, coordinating schedules 16:24:49 Hadi: Can do testing, will not often be able to come to this meeting time 16:28:47 mk: Pls test with JAWS 2025 so it's the same as the bot run 16:29:18 mk: NVDA 2025.3 conflicting result between Joe and Dean. 16:29:28 Joe: did that on purpose so we could talk about it 16:30:17 Joe: When you run with NVDA, 2 assertions convey minium and maximum value, which it does, but only in the error message. If the control didn't have an error, the info wouldn't be conveyed. Is that a failure? 16:30:51 mk: if the error wasn't present, min and mix weren't conveyed. The error gets conveyed, but no the min and max. 16:31:00 mk: priority of htose assertions later in agenda 16:31:09 mk: The test fails those assertions. 16:31:32 Joe: I will respond to Dean that min/max are not conveyed as attributes on controls. 16:31:42 mk: this is why we have humans who know what they're doing 16:32:03 mk: VoiceOver conflicts. Dean and Murray have different output. Neither is present today 16:32:11 mk: we're down to 1 conflict 16:32:16 Joe: I also have info on that one 16:33:18 Joe: Dean asked me to run the conflict test (6) on older Mac and one with MacOS, Safari, VS are 26.3.1 When I used that combo, I got the same result as Murry 16:33:27 mk: Was quicknav off? 16:33:30 Joe: yes 16:33:38 mk: That's a big regression in VO! 16:34:04 Joe: Dean was still getting some of these issue with his version. 16:34:26 Joe: Dean was getting correct info, Murray and I were geting 0% 16:34:57 Joe: with ctrl-option-down-arrow some info was announced, not % 16:35:27 Joe: Dean may change his results 16:36:05 mk: should he? 16:36:17 Joe: Dean may have upgraded 16:36:50 Joe: Murray has test 6 not complete, so conflict doesn't show 16:37:11 mk: NVDA conflict page changed too? 16:37:25 Joe: Dean changed his results to FAIL 16:38:03 (debugging happens) 16:38:49 Joe: it's waiting on my submission to show conflicts 16:39:01 mk: that's a strange behavior of the tool 16:39:57 Joe: Murry needs to save his results to make the conflict show 16:42:18 mk: may be a bug that we need to show the it's not complete in the status table 16:42:53 mk: will try to repro in staging environment 16:43:18 mk: looks like we have a path forward. Hadi testing JAWS, Joe breaking ties 16:43:36 TOPIC: Assertion priority discussion for spinner test 4 16:44:09 GITHUB: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1366 16:44:47 mk: Raised this issue when reviewing NVDA conflicts in quantitiy spin button plan. 16:45:37 mk: you have a spin button that allows input of invalid value by typing. When you do that, an error message appears that tells you how to correct the problem. In that circumstance, there are 3 assertions... 16:45:58 mk: 1 assertion is that screen reader will announce error message, 2 convey min value, 3 convey max value 16:46:34 mk: in the other tests in the test plan, conveying min/max is a P2/should. But in this circumstance, we might have made a mistake when setting the priority to 1 16:47:11 mk: seems problematic that screen-reader conveying both error message and min/max 16:47:32 mk: normally error message that says value is invalid should tell the user how it's invalid 16:47:53 mk: we should consider whether min/max should be SHOULD or MAY for screen reader 16:48:10 mk: NVDA does not convey min/max consistently in any tests 16:48:25 mk: JAWS does not convey min/max in that circumstance, but does in others 16:48:54 mk: will get input from sr developers, but does the group have an option 16:49:59 Hadi: maybe range could be in instructions instead of making min/max required. I like to hear it with the error message, but should it be required? Might get a complaint if it's in isntructions. I'm for MAY, but persnally I think it should be SHOULd 16:50:03 q+ 16:51:33 mk: question: example spin button, there isn't a requirement in WCAG or APT that you have to describe the range, because you've specified with aria-value-min and aria-value-max. expectation that screen reader will take advantage of those. But this one also has aria-invalid=true 16:52:25 mk: what does wcag say about case where aria-invalid is true and spin button doesn't have an error, would that be a WCAG failure 16:52:30 Joe: yes 16:52:35 3.3.1 16:52:55 Joe: "...the error is described in text" 16:53:16 mk: is it good enough if the error says "the value is out of range" would you fail it? 16:53:51 Joe: I would probably fail it for input eero suggestions 16:53:59 that is AA SHOULD 16:54:58 3.3.1 Error Identification and 3.3.3 Error Suggestion are the relevant WCAG requirements 16:55:24 I have to head out a little early, please let know when the engineer bot training sessions is. 16:56:10 mk: If you have a WCAG-compliant spin button. Our SR requirements always assume that the control complies with WCAG. would it be redundant to require SR to do that? 16:56:37 Joe: There's no WCAG requirement that the range be provided. As Hadi said, there are usability needs 16:58:08 mk: we can reduce priority of exposing min/max to 3 where there is an error message present and it's aria-invalid 16:59:02 mk: because the WCAG-compliant error message would give the suggestion 17:00:09 Joe: I think it should still be a SHOULD based on the being a usability need 17:00:49 mk: if the spinner and its error message are WCAG compliant, then you don't need to convey the min/max because the WCAG-compliant error message would say it 17:01:32 mk: We are at time. Please look at the other issues assynchronously 17:03:50 Zakim, end meeting 17:03:50 As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, Joe_Humbert, Siri 17:03:51 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:03:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/08-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim 17:04:00 I am happy to have been of service, cyns; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 17:04:00 Zakim has left #aria-at 18:31:58 Matt_King has joined #aria-at