14:03:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag-act
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14:03:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:03:56 <Zakim> Meeting: Accessibility Conformance Testing Teleconference
14:03:56 <Dan_Tripp6> present+
14:03:56 <sashanichols> present+
14:03:58 <Wilco> present+
14:03:58 <Godwin> present+
14:04:00 <Kathy> present+
14:04:03 <Wilco> agenda+ Change tooltip to name prohibited
14:04:09 <Wilco> agenda+ Change tooltip to name prohibited
14:04:12 <Daniel> Meeting: ACT Rules Community Group Teleconference
14:04:13 <Wilco> agenda+ ARIA normative change -- Add heading and separator roles to feed's allowed accessibility children
14:04:16 <Wilco> agenda+ ARIA normative change -- Relax aria-valuenow requirement on slider role
14:04:19 <Wilco> agenda+ ARIA normative change -- Add transparent generic definition and update accessibility parent and child defs
14:04:22 <Wilco> agenda+ AOB
14:05:21 <Dan_Tripp6> scribe+ dan_tripp6
14:05:31 <Dan_Tripp6> scribe+
14:05:36 <Dan_Tripp6> zakim, take up next
14:05:36 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Change tooltip to name prohibited -- taken up [from Wilco]
14:06:01 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: we have a project board now.
14:06:07 <Wilco> https://github.com/orgs/act-rules/projects/2
14:06:47 <Dan_Tripp6> ... dan's PR 2075 wasn't merged?
14:07:13 <Dan_Tripp6> kathy: that link is 404
14:08:01 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: ah yes there's an access problem
14:08:06 <Dan_Tripp6> ... I'll screen share then
14:08:19 <Dan_Tripp6> ... will figure out access later
14:08:42 <Dan_Tripp6> ... dan's PR is ready for call for review
14:08:54 <Dan_Tripp6> ... send call for review email to CG mailing list
14:08:58 <Dan_Tripp6> ... look in inbox
14:09:08 <Dan_Tripp6> ... unsure - ping on slack or smt
14:10:13 <Dan_Tripp6> godwin: website work.  doesn't render well.  I put it up on personal url to see what it looks like.
14:10:35 <Dan_Tripp6> ... didn't realize that script made a commit to w3c rep
14:10:37 <Dan_Tripp6> *repo
14:11:08 <Dan_Tripp6> ... also want to write up a developer's guide in the project somewhere.
14:11:20 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: ping me when you've got anything ready for review
14:11:29 <Dan_Tripp6> godwin: I think it's ready.
14:12:37 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: giacomo you mentioned you were interested in a "thing has accName" project
14:12:56 <Dan_Tripp6> ... do we want to note that on this project board as a potential future project?
14:12:57 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: yes
14:13:07 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: (adding it on project board)
14:13:16 <Dan_Tripp6> ... that's all the project work.
14:13:19 <Dan_Tripp6> ... (stops screen share)
14:13:24 <Dan_Tripp6> zakim, take up next
14:13:24 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Change tooltip to name prohibited -- taken up [from Wilco]
14:14:07 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: nothing special.  just aria WG decided that tooltip can't receive accName.   we have a rule for that.  but not impacted b/c we don't have examples for tooltip.
14:14:24 <Wilco> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/2391
14:14:25 <Dan_Tripp6> ... but if we want, we can add an example.
14:14:45 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: so do we want a rule for this?    my feeling is that this doesn't map to any wcag reqs.
14:14:55 <Dan_Tripp6> ... any disagreement?  i.e. this should be an aria-only rule.
14:15:09 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: if you set accName to tooltip, potentially it might override the content of the tooltip.  that's the real problem.
14:15:19 <Dan_Tripp6> ... depending on UA/AT.
14:15:40 <Dan_Tripp6> shunguo: tooltip for accname is from "co-mapping" (?)
14:16:04 <Dan_Tripp6> ... for some things like buttons, tooltip, input field - tooltip can be part of accname.
14:16:30 <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/TR/core-aam-1.2/
14:16:48 <Dan_Tripp6> (core mapping not co-mapping)
14:16:56 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: I don't mind the rule
14:17:09 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: I'm not asking for new rule.  asking if we want to add example to existing rule.
14:17:28 <Dan_Tripp6> ... rule ~ "are aria global properties used where not permitted"
14:17:36 <Dan_Tripp6> ... so pretty straightforward
14:18:02 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: we fail eg. divs, paragraphs, role=none, ... that's it
14:18:22 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: specifically aria-label/labelledby prohibited, correct?
14:18:25 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: yes
14:18:38 <Dan_Tripp6> ... might be useful to provide example w/ non-generic role
14:18:52 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: problem potentially is that this is not prohibited in aria 1.2, which this rule still maps to.
14:18:59 <Dan_Tripp6> ... actually that's a good reason not to do it.
14:19:08 <Dan_Tripp6> ... however, it might also be time for us to switch to 1.3.
14:19:16 <Dan_Tripp6> ... that would be a larger project.
14:19:37 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: aria is an evergreen spec.  it changes when the tech has already supported things.
14:19:52 <Dan_Tripp6> shunguo: accName calculation is a big one.  we can't just ignore it.
14:20:06 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: we should probably create a project to migrate to aria 1.3.
14:21:04 <Dan_Tripp6> shunguo: so if we think tooltip shouldn't have an accname, we should first open issues there (?)
14:21:14 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: is it time for us to migrate to aria 1.3?
14:21:16 <Dan_Tripp6> shunguo: agree
14:21:29 <Dan_Tripp6> ... my understanding is that it's now a living document.
14:21:30 <giacomo-petri> +1 to migrate
14:21:38 <Dan_Tripp6> ... it's more like html 5 today.
14:21:42 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: I agree
14:21:53 <Dan_Tripp6> ... so let me add that as a project.
14:22:50 <Dan_Tripp6> me: is this "living document" status documented?
14:22:51 <Dan_Tripp6> shunguo: no
14:23:14 <Dan_Tripp6> ... not official
14:24:38 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: difference is that html 5 is an "actual living doc" but aria just uses it's editor's draft.
14:24:43 <Dan_Tripp6> zakim, take up next
14:24:43 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- ARIA normative change -- Add heading and separator roles to feed's allowed accessibility children -- taken up [from Wilco]
14:25:17 <Wilco> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/2383
14:25:38 <giacomo-petri> q+
14:25:39 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: this is an open PR.     not in the spec.
14:26:06 <Dan_Tripp6> ... probably generic for all of these issues.   the FYI is: they're adding some allowed roles to "feed".
14:26:51 <Dan_Tripp6> ... this feels unimpactful.   one this lands, we may want to do something.  I don't think this changes existing rules.  I think we can just say "yup, acknowledges".
14:27:23 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: I checked act rules for aria.  not impacting.   might be worth for us to clarify.  changed from "required a11y children" / parents with "allowed".
14:27:43 <Dan_Tripp6> ... we might want to clarify what it means.  generic/intervening - aria wants to say that empty elements are ok.
14:28:24 <Dan_Tripp6> ... list required listitem children.   now /allow/.   so now you can have <div role="list"> without listitem children.  but we as act might want to add something.
14:28:38 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: we already allow empty parents, don't we?
14:28:52 <Wilco> https://deploy-preview-330--wai-wcag-act-rules.netlify.app/standards-guidelines/act/rules/bc4a75/proposed/#expectation
14:29:19 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: this is not saying "this has to own it".  it's saying "it can only own it".
14:29:32 <Dan_Tripp6> ... i.e. not requiring.  prohibiting other.
14:29:55 <Dan_Tripp6> ... would you suggest thought that we should require certain children?
14:30:31 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: not really.  something like: rule that says here are the aria-allowed children.
14:30:56 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: we don't test this the way aria says.  we've done it this way: "you can have these children and nothing else".
14:31:27 <Wilco> ack g
14:31:46 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: we probably need to change the definition.
14:31:52 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: yes this rule does need to be updated.
14:31:56 <Dan_Tripp6> ... as per aria 1.3.
14:32:06 <Dan_Tripp6> zakim, take up next
14:32:07 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- ARIA normative change -- Relax aria-valuenow requirement on slider role -- taken up [from Wilco]
14:32:26 <Wilco> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/2382
14:32:45 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: I think this is a similar story.  not merged yet, but it will be.
14:33:02 <Dan_Tripp6> ... and once it is, we should probably add an example.
14:33:17 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: we have passed example 13 in "aria state or property permitted" but not impacted
14:33:24 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: another example would be good here.
14:33:40 <Dan_Tripp6> zakim, take up next
14:33:40 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- ARIA normative change -- Add transparent generic definition and update accessibility parent and child defs -- taken up [from Wilco]
14:33:56 <Wilco> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/2381
14:34:16 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: this is probably more impactful for us.
14:34:36 <Dan_Tripp6> ... I like that we have a definition of this now.
14:35:13 <Dan_Tripp6> ... we're finally defining this.  long time coming.
14:35:54 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: all the 1.3.1 are not listed in aria rules.  but of course they are affecting wcag SCs.  but filter should display both.  should be both in 1.3.1 and aria section.
14:36:18 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: they're mapped though
14:36:24 <Dan_Tripp6> ... problem is bigger than thta
14:36:26 <Dan_Tripp6> *that
14:36:32 <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/rules/6a7281/proposed/
14:36:57 <Dan_Tripp6> ... it's listed under SC 1.3.1.   but it has 1.3.1 as a /secondary/ requirement.
14:37:19 <Dan_Tripp6> ... I don't think we want secondary requirements at all.  this is not guaranteed to fail 1.3.1.
14:37:32 <Dan_Tripp6> ... godwin we have more work there
14:38:28 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: (sharing screen)
14:39:01 <Dan_Tripp6> ... showing rule X.  a11y reqs mapping.  under ARIA 1.2.  4.1.2 is a secondary requirement.
14:39:19 <Dan_Tripp6> ... let me check if this is the approved version of the rule.  no.  this is the proposed version.
14:39:30 <Dan_Tripp6> ... let me go to the approved version.   can't.  it doesn't have an approved version.
14:39:59 <Dan_Tripp6> ... so this rule should not be ... want ... where did my requirements mapping go?   weird.  will have to investigate.
14:40:31 <Dan_Tripp6> godwin: this was raised on changes page.  all of the links say "proposed" in the url no matter what state they're in.
14:40:34 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: that shouldn't happen.
14:40:59 <Dan_Tripp6> godwin: you can't go to deprecate it.  that will be a 404.  they're all just "proposed".
14:41:08 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: those links should be the approved...
14:41:22 <Dan_Tripp6> ... we have a redirect from approved to proposed url.   all should link directly to approved versioin.
14:41:32 <Dan_Tripp6> ... is that not the case?  no it's not.
14:41:42 <Dan_Tripp6> godwin: is it supposed to be with "approved" in the url?
14:41:50 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: no, just doesn't have "proposed".
14:42:06 <Dan_Tripp6> ... so we have some work here.
14:43:00 <Dan_Tripp6> kathy: question about 1.3.1 as a secondary requirement.   in passed example 3, if aria-expanded is not valid on a tree or something, and it is expanded, I can see why that would be a 1.3.1 issue.
14:43:27 <Dan_Tripp6> ... if you have aria-expanded undefined on a tree that's not expanded.  then 1.3.1 could fail there.
14:43:48 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: yes agree.  the state is not conveyed.  probably more 4.1.2.  but yes.
14:44:02 <Dan_Tripp6> kathy: I thought you were saying that 1.3.1 should not be a secondary requirement.
14:44:12 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: no I think it should be.
14:44:15 <giacomo-petri> q+ to talk about transparent/generic definition (after this discussion)
14:44:32 <Dan_Tripp6> ... I don't think it should be /listed/ under 1.3.1.  only listed under "primary" req.
14:44:46 <Wilco> ack g
14:44:46 <Zakim> giacomo-petri, you wanted to talk about transparent/generic definition (after this discussion)
14:45:17 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: you mentioned how this might affect our rules.  I just checked and found a bunch of failed examples that now should pass.  eg. <ul> with empty divs inside.
14:45:31 <Dan_Tripp6> ... goes with "allowed a11y children".  so we can work on them together.
14:46:02 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: I'll give that a "maybe".   I saw james gregg (?) made  a change request.  probably safe to wait until that's resolved.
14:46:23 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: james' concern is: they want flexibility in removing element from a11y tree.
14:46:35 <Dan_Tripp6> ... what is relevant for us is "ul with empty divs inside" are no longer failing.
14:46:46 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: the other thing is: I don't think firefox works this way yet.
14:46:54 <Dan_Tripp6> ... I'd want to wait until firefox is on board.
14:47:16 <Dan_Tripp6> ... I think firefox ignores those generics.  there's still an accessibility problem.  I tested this about two weeks ago.
14:47:26 <Wilco> agenda?
14:47:26 <Dan_Tripp6> zakim, take up next
14:47:27 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- AOB -- taken up [from Wilco]
14:48:17 <Dan_Tripp6> wilco: final thoughts?
14:48:46 <Dan_Tripp6> me: label in name PR progress - great - thank you
14:48:54 <Dan_Tripp6> kathy: congrats dan.  lotta work.
14:49:05 <Dan_Tripp6> giacomo: thank you all.
14:49:10 <Dan_Tripp6> sasha: no thoughts today
14:49:26 <Dan_Tripp6> godwin: not much.  should consider adding me to scribe list.
14:49:54 <Dan_Tripp6> shunguo: not much.  I was very busy for first few months.  thank you.
14:50:07 <Wilco> zakim, end meeting
14:50:07 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been sashanichols, Dan_Tripp, Wilco, Godwin, Kathy
14:50:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v1
14:50:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-wcag-act-minutes.html Zakim
14:50:19 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Wilco; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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15:03:31 <Daniel> s/Meeting: Accessibility Conformance Testing Teleconference/Meeting: ACT Rules Community Group Teleconference/
15:03:34 <Daniel> present+ Giacomo
15:03:38 <Daniel> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-wcag-act-minutes.html Daniel
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