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15:52:22 <ktk> meeting: RDF-star WG meeting
15:52:38 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/11e4d020-9c58-4fff-83c5-37c9e2502295/20260402T120000/
15:52:38 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:52:38 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2026/03/26-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:52:38 <agendabot> agenda+ CR Status
15:52:38 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
15:52:39 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open PRs, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
15:52:42 <agendabot> agenda+ Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8
15:52:45 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:52:47 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:52:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
15:52:53 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log public
15:53:02 <ktk> regrets+ tl
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15:57:33 <AndyS> zakim, help
15:57:33 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
15:57:33 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
15:57:33 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
15:57:33 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
15:57:34 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
15:57:34 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
15:57:35 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
15:57:37 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
15:57:37 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
15:57:37 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
15:57:37 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
15:57:39 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
15:57:39 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
15:57:39 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
15:57:39 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
15:57:39 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
15:57:40 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2020/12/31 21:20:53 $
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16:01:13 <ora> present+
16:01:16 <ora> chair+
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16:02:03 <TallTed> present+
16:02:22 <olaf> present+
16:02:32 <pfps> present+
16:02:32 <pchampin> scribe+
16:02:32 <AndyS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:02:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
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16:02:57 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:02:57 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2026/03/26-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:03:25 <pfps> look OK to me
16:03:26 <niklasl> present+
16:03:28 <ora> PROPOSAL: Approve last week's minutes
16:03:31 <ora> +1
16:03:34 <Dominik_T> +0 (not present)
16:03:34 <niklasl> +1
16:03:42 <AndyS> +1
16:03:46 <olaf> +1
16:03:46 <lisp> 0
16:03:47 <gtw> +1
16:03:49 <Souri> 0 (could not attend)
16:03:54 <pchampin> +1
16:03:56 <AZ> 0 (not present last week)
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16:04:02 <ktk> +1
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16:05:34 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:05:34 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- CR Status -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:44 <AndyS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:05:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
16:06:13 <ora> RESOLVED: Approve last week's minutes
16:07:01 <pchampin> ora: we have moved to CR for the first batch of specification
16:07:09 <pfps> q+
16:07:15 <pchampin> ... it is a big milestone, and I think a bunch of people thought we would never get there
16:07:19 <pchampin> q+
16:07:37 <TallTed> q+
16:07:41 <ora> ack pfps
16:07:53 <ora> ack pchampin
16:07:54 <pchampin> ... what is remarkable is that we get substantial participation after 3 1/2 years
16:08:31 <pfps> q-
16:09:17 <Dominik_T> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:09:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-rdf-star-minutes.html Dominik_T
16:09:35 <ora> ack TallTed
16:09:40 <pchampin> pchampin: we have *resolved* to publish them as CR; I submitted the transition request
16:09:53 <pchampin> ... if everything goes smoothly, they should be published on 7 April
16:10:20 <pchampin> TallTed: Virtuoso has started implementing RDF 1.2, all test now passing
16:10:25 <ktk> List with transition announce: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-transition-announce/2026Mar/
16:10:32 <ktk> see Friday 27th
16:11:18 <AndyS> q+
16:11:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:11:36 <pchampin> ora: I wanted to mention that we should reach out to the implementers that we know
16:12:00 <pchampin> ... Also, the Knowledge Graph conference is in the beginning of May, ktk and I will be there
16:12:14 <pchampin> ... it is good that we will be in CR by then; we will probably get a lot of questions
16:12:36 <pchampin> ktk: and it is cool that we can report that some implementations are already there
16:13:29 <pchampin> TallTed: that was 3 document out of 27, so it is not that "we are in CR", it is that "we are starting to be in CR"
16:14:28 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:14:28 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ktk
16:14:55 <pchampin> ktk: we also wanted to propose to prepare a post on LinkedIn about the transition to CR
16:14:56 <ktk> q?
16:15:04 <ora> ack AndyS
16:15:27 <pchampin> AndyS: does anything change about how we update documents during CR?
16:15:32 <pchampin> q+
16:15:55 <pchampin> ... If you are taking to the KG conference, do we make an effort to quickly put Turtle in the process?
16:16:10 <pchampin> ... most examples are in Turtle, more readable than N-Triples
16:16:20 <pchampin> ora: that would be helpful, we have exactly one month
16:17:03 <ora> ack pchampin
16:18:44 <TallTed> s/Virtuoso has started implementing RDF 1.2, all test now passing/Virtuoso has started RDF 1.2 implementation, passing virtually all tests for the 3 docs to date/
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16:19:40 <pchampin> pchampin: once a spec is in CR, we disable echidna, so TR is not updated when we push to the main branch
16:19:42 <j22> +j22
16:19:57 <pchampin> ... but the Editor's Draft is still updated, we can continue working as usual
16:20:16 <pchampin> ... I don't think that we can hope to have Turtle published as CR in 1 month
16:20:48 <pchampin> present+ j22
16:20:59 <pchampin> s/+j22/
16:21:10 <ktk> q?
16:21:15 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:21:15 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:21:17 <Dominik_T> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:21:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-rdf-star-minutes.html Dominik_T
16:21:31 <pchampin> ora: I have not done anything on my actions
16:22:00 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:22:00 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, ktk
16:22:05 <pchampin> niklasl: nothing to report either, waiting for some replies
16:22:08 <ktk> Zakim, close item 3
16:22:08 <Zakim> agendum 3, Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3, closed
16:22:10 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:22:10 <Zakim> 4. Review of open PRs, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 [from agendabot]
16:22:12 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:22:12 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of open PRs, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:22:52 <pchampin> q+
16:22:56 <pfps> q+
16:23:09 <ora> ack pchampin
16:23:11 <pfps> q-
16:24:50 <pfps> q+
16:25:26 <pfps> q-
16:25:28 <pchampin> pchampin: the "prepare CR snapshop" PRs contain the snapshot submitted for transition request
16:25:48 <pchampin> ... I had to include some text describing explicitly the exit criteria
16:26:06 <pchampin> ... I didn't wait for the PRs to be merged to make the transition request, though, in the interest of time
16:26:18 <ora> q?
16:26:39 <pfps> q+
16:26:52 <ora> ack pfps
16:27:01 <pchampin> pfps: there are some PRs for SPARQL entailment
16:27:42 <pchampin> ... I think some of those are ready to go, none really exciting, mostly updating to RDF 1.2 entailment
16:28:18 <pchampin> ... Also, what about "common files by reference", are these good to do? I guess there is no hurry
16:28:36 <pchampin> q?
16:29:03 <niklasl> Yes, I think the ones that been merged look fine, so I guess they're all good to go.
16:29:30 <pchampin> pchampin: the "common files by reference" were merged last week on the documents for which I generated CR snapshot, that seemed to go well
16:30:23 <pchampin> ora: what about the diagram of the threat model? pchampin you made some changes?
16:31:10 <pchampin> pchampin: I applied some comments from last week, and made the textual description of the figure part of the caption (rather than hidden in alt text)
16:31:17 <pchampin> ... for me it is good to merge
16:31:45 <pchampin> ora: what about PRs on the tests?
16:31:54 <pchampin> AndyS: the protocol one is still under work
16:32:09 <pchampin> ... the RDF/XML one needs work on the RDF/XML specification
16:32:13 <pchampin> ... they are all progressing
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16:32:29 <enrico> Present+
16:32:40 <pchampin> ... there is one on sparql-query from pfps, with some suggestions against it
16:32:50 <j22> (note: Jerven has taken the next three fridays off to work on RDF/XML spec)
16:32:50 <enrico> present+
16:34:48 <pchampin> pfps: [discussions about the suggested changes, about text alignment]
16:35:37 <pchampin> AndyS: I'll put together a summary of the RDF/XML issues that are spreaded around
16:35:45 <pchampin> j22: thanks you
16:37:40 <pchampin> ora: I need to find my ORCID for the RDF/XML
16:38:03 <pchampin> pfps: is it a requirement to have an ORCID for all editors?
16:38:11 <pchampin> j22: not a requirement, but a nice to have
16:38:25 <pchampin> pfps: ok, will look into that for semantics
16:39:00 <TallTed> https://w3c.github.io/rdf-threat-model/
16:42:47 <pchampin> pchampin: the doc itself is just the Respec template; my priority was to provide the diagram
16:44:30 <j22> ORCIDs are nicely LOD -> curl -L -H 'accept:text/turtle' 'https://orcid.org/0000-0003-0543-1232'
16:44:49 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:44:49 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:45:29 <Dominik_T> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:45:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-rdf-star-minutes.html Dominik_T
16:46:10 <pchampin> Regarding the Editor's not issue
16:46:29 <ktk> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/248
16:46:29 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/248 -> Issue 248 Resolve "Editor's notes" (by afs) [ms:CR] [spec:editorial]
16:46:42 <pchampin> it should be ok, right?
16:46:56 <AndyS> s/not issue/note issue/
16:47:34 <pchampin> s/Regarding/ora: Regarding
16:47:39 <pchampin> s/it should/... it should
16:48:06 <pchampin> ktk: it should be
16:48:23 <pchampin> ora: also we can close the Horizontal Review tracker for the documents that are transitioned to CR
16:50:05 <pchampin> q+
16:50:16 <ora> ack pchampin
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16:51:35 <pchampin> https://w3c.github.io/rdf-tests/rdf/rdf12/reports/
16:52:18 <pchampin> pchampin: I created this empty page so that the "implementation report" link in the specs does not return a 404
16:52:28 <pchampin> ... we need to decide on our process to populate them
16:53:10 <AndyS> q+
16:53:17 <pchampin> ora: what about w3c/rdf-xml#86
16:53:19 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-xml/issues/86 -> Issue 86 Evolving 1.2 triple term features : rdf:parseType, rdf:annotation (by afs) [ms:CR]
16:53:34 <pchampin> j22: I will be working on that, but I'm not sure to find an elegant solution that everybody will be happy with
16:53:51 <pchampin> q+
16:53:56 <ora> ack Andyt
16:53:56 <ora> S
16:54:04 <ora> ack AndyS
16:54:20 <pchampin> AndyS: there is no perfect solution; there is no way to change RDF 1.1 without theoretically breaking some corner cases
16:54:33 <pchampin> ... one way that it breaks is about text direction, and it is not even under our control
16:54:46 <pchampin> ... the its:dir was previously a property attribute, now it is not
16:55:16 <pchampin> ... hopefully, RDF/XML users will be able to give feedback on which use-cases they care most
16:56:09 <pchampin> ... I am not to concerned about adding things to the rdf: namespace; if it breaks someone's use-case, too bad
16:56:21 <pchampin> ... I also did not know, but we can not currently add the version at the top level
16:56:31 <niklasl> +1 to that
16:56:41 <pchampin> ... If we make breaking changes, we can make it smoother for future versions
16:57:16 <pchampin> ... CIM (Common Information Model) is kind of RDF/XML, but based on a pre-1.0 version
16:57:46 <pchampin> ... I don't know if it is officially RDF/XML or just happens to be nearly aligned
16:58:28 <ora> ack pchampin
17:00:42 <pchampin> pchampin: I'm a bit concerned about the TAG review for RDF/XML. We already had to argue about the (less) breaking changes in N-Triples.
17:00:49 <pchampin> ... we will need good arguments
17:00:55 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:00:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:01:03 <TallTed> possibly helpful -- from https://www.google.com/search?q=%22common+information+model%22+vs+%22rdf%2Fxml%22 -- "In practice, when a utility company needs to export their network model, they use the CIM to define what information to include and then serialize it into an RDF/XML file for the recipient to read. Developers often use tools like the CIMTool (https://cimtool.ucaiug.io/core-concepts/) to bridge the gap between the
17:01:03 <TallTed>  UML-based CIM and the RDF-based exchange files."
17:01:10 <j22> For next week, acceptance of breaking changes in other specs was quite high? did that change?
17:01:14 <pchampin> <pchampin> regrets for next week
17:01:19 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:01:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:02:24 <TallTed> s/we have moved to CR for the first batch of specification/we have moved to CR for the first batch of specifications/
17:02:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:03:12 <pchampin> j22 I don't understand your question above, sorry. What I meant is:
17:03:55 <pchampin> the TAG was concerned about the breaking changes we made into N-Triples and that was *not* changing the interpretation of any existing N-Triples.
17:04:06 <j22> I meant that other standards had quite a lot of breakage XSD1.1 for example. Did the TAG get more strict about this?
17:04:14 <pchampin> with RDF/XML, some old RDF/XML might (in theory) be interpreted differently
17:04:37 <pchampin> their concern is about the media-type remaining the same
17:05:08 <pchampin> as AndyS said, we believe that the cost of
17:05:32 <pchampin> changing the media type is greater than the cost of breaking a few corner-cases
17:06:00 <pchampin> but we had to fight a bit to defend that position
17:06:27 <j22> I think so too, standards tend to promise backwards compatibility not forward compatibility (v2 can read v1, v1 can not read v2)
17:07:17 <pchampin> yes, but with the same media-type, a 1.1 parser may believe that it is getting 1.1 Turtle, when it is actually getting 1.2
17:07:56 <j22> yes same for html and xml and they did not have to change media type?
17:09:54 <j22> have to go