14:59:48 RRSAgent has joined #hcls 14:59:52 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-hcls-irc 14:59:58 rrsagent, make logs public 14:59:59 Meeting: FHIR RDF 15:00:01 Chair: David Booth 15:08:03 Topic: Extending the FHIR RDF ontology 15:08:14 ken: Eric Jahn and I have hosted some files on github. 15:11:06 EricJahn: https://github.com/eric-jahn/ucm-hcls-fhir-rdf/tree/gh-pages/docs/ucm 15:12:35 EricJahn: Ken started a unified care model. 15:13:19 ... (UCM). And there's a requirements file. 15:13:42 ... I forked the HCLS repo, and did a PR for my files. 15:14:54 ken: the dark blue are base classes in SULO. 15:15:25 ... Discussed last week to use SULO as a foundation. 15:16:05 ... Want a unified care model that goes across domains. 15:16:47 dbooth: How would the UCM fit with the FHIR RDF ontology? 15:17:05 ken: In addition to links to BFO, it will also link to FHIR RDF ont. 15:18:10 michel: I'm on my mobile, but will look offline later. Want to walk me through some of the classifications? 15:18:26 ... Two design patterns: Process role, and SOLID pattern. 15:18:47 To what extent is the care portion aligned? How aligned to SULO? 15:19:27 ken: Basis: we created a new model where all of those classes and object properties were imported. 15:19:53 dbooth: Which classes/properties were imported? 15:20:30 ken: THe classes/properties from the SULO, described in the SULO paper. 15:20:36 ... Then extending them in some ways. 15:20:47 ... Into clinical or social processes. 15:23:55 ... Person is a subclass of PhysicalEntity, which is a subclass of SpatialEntity 15:24:39 ... I'm just playing around. Only the base SULO stuff is core. 15:25:04 dbooth: And is this the right way to use SULO? 15:25:27 michel: Base categorization is important, but also needs to reflect what the real world sees. 15:25:42 ... Have you instantiated into anything yet? 15:26:11 ken: No. This group worked on FHIR RDF ont, and associated with records and clinical domain. 15:27:07 ... Eric Jahn as worked on housing (from HUD model). Goal of the care model is to able to extend it into various domains, and classes/properties become domain-specific. 15:27:40 michel: I see a lot of good things, esp InformationEntity. 15:28:10 ... Not sure what Participation class is. The name is a bit misleading, because it's an information object. 15:28:23 ... You also have Report under Collection. Rationale? 15:29:14 ken: a Report is a collectoin of Observation results, and make have some additional characteristics. I'm experimenting with it. 15:29:36 ... But I'm trying to understand what is an aggregation. A collection of statements? 15:30:09 michel: A Collection is much more like a set or class. You can have arbitrary members, like a stamp collection. 15:30:25 ... But when you have a report, you have various parts. 15:30:50 ... The things that are spatially-temporarily together are probably in the same space. 15:31:01 ... Report seems more like an InfoEntity. 15:31:34 ken: Want to differentiate btwn what is an ont representation vs an epistemic representation. A report is an epistemic set if onstances. 15:32:22 dbooth: clarify? example? 15:32:41 ken: Eg, i've got a blob that captures some info about a condition. 15:32:49 ... What could be captured in that is an ont model. 15:33:09 ... But someone would make a statement about exactly what they did capture. And it would have values. 15:33:30 ... A Report sometimes, like a med statement in FHIR, would be a collection about a specific med over time. 15:33:42 ... Want to keep those separate. 15:33:53 michel: This is an area of extension in SULO. 15:34:11 ... Maybe description, or argumentation, or counter arguments, descriptions of things. 15:34:25 ... That just falls under InfoEntity, but isn't detailed further. 15:34:36 ... Collection is more specialized. 15:35:27 ken: The driving business practice is taht in FHIR you get info from multiple systems, aggregating them, etc. Want to make sure that's a real value vs a conceptual value. 15:35:40 dbooth: Model level vs instance data level? Ken: Yes. 15:35:59 michel: Those both fall under InfoEntity. 15:36:17 ACTION: Michel to look at Ken and Eric Jahn's draft ont. 15:37:04 michel: Key part of SULO: the ont should be expressed w only the relations and no more. You replace yuour existing relations with SULO relations. 15:37:36 ... Can you express everything in your ont with only SULO relations? 15:37:55 ... Are there relations for which we have no compatible relationship? 15:38:08 ... Is it fundamentally not expressible using SULO? 15:38:25 erip: Is there a LINT, for SULO? 15:38:53 ... We express our ont, then ground it back to SULO. Is there anything tool that says "You missed this part"? 15:39:13 michel: SULOizer is trying to put a given ont into SULO. 15:39:45 ... Big part of the challenge is to get at what the domain modeller was trying to do. It might not be evident from the name. 15:40:18 ... Did it for FOAF and a couple others, but it will be a challenge. The idea would be to use an LLM to understand the categories and relations, to better understand. 15:40:40 ... When we have a relation like hasMedicalOutcome, did we capture that? 15:41:00 ... We were trying to describe equivalence using Shexmap 15:41:21 ... Some kind of mapping language to say that elements on this side are equivalent to elements on that side. 15:41:52 ... This is in line w the semantic interop. 15:42:04 ericp: What bits of the ont are not grounded in SULO? 15:43:29 michel: In FOAF there's an Agent class, which is a union of org or person -- completely different kinds of things. Doesn't fit cleanly w SULO. My SULOizer fails on it. Maybe they're roles. 15:43:57 ericp: But just having a punchlist of things that haven't yet been mapped back to SULO. 15:44:21 ... There will be lots of cases in our world where we'll have the person/agent issue --- people or device groups. 15:44:37 ken: Yes, Participant. Org or person. 15:45:43 michel: Similar concept that you're asking. It says here are all the data properties, etc., but you haven't done these parts. 15:46:07 ericp: With shexmap, you can see what parts of the graph were not touched. 15:46:41 michel: I implemented your whole shexmap into suloizer. You can do it in the browser, then save it. 15:46:46 ... And share it. 15:46:59 ... I'll share it when it's stable. 15:49:04 dbooth: Sounds very analogous to the formal definition of semantic interop that I've been working on. 15:49:35 tim: “Two systems are semantically interoperable if […] all implications made by one system hold and are provable by the other, and that there is a logical equivalence between those implications” https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-025-04580-1 15:50:10 tim: We also did a SPARQL query to check the mapping coverage. Does every term from one ont have some mapping to the other? 15:50:23 ... And if you make it bidirectional, it becomes synonymy. 15:50:38 ... I did a SPARQL query that every FHIR class had a mapping to W5. 15:51:36 michel: Maybe I can demo shexmap repo idea next week. 15:52:18 ken: How best to collaborate on this? 15:53:31 dbooth: Great to start writing things down, so that others can react to them. 15:53:52 tim: A few specific examples are really helpful. Even some mappings in spreadsheets. 15:54:31 ken: Still coming up with specific use case examples. But we have two existing ontologies: FHIR RDF ont, and the HUD model. 15:54:54 ... Could we link those, so the UCM can support those existing models? 15:56:06 ken: I think we're a couple weeks away from an exmaple use case that uses them both. 15:56:33 tim: Keep in mind: FHIR has a way to make links to other terminologies within FHIR. 15:56:44 ... We've worked in it the RDF way, with Concept IRIs. 16:00:43 ADJOURNED 16:02:21 Present: EricP, Eric Jahn, Steve Munini, Michel Dumontier, Rob Hausam, David Booth, Ken Lord, Tim Prudhomme 16:02:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 16:04:27 i/Eric Jahn and I have hosted/Issue https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/issues/216 16:04:30 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:04:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/02-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 17:57:22 dbooth has joined #hcls 18:49:25 dbooth has joined #hcls