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16:04:46 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
16:04:50 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
16:04:53 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
16:05:08 <jugglinmike> present+ Adam_Page
16:05:11 <jugglinmike> present+ jongund_
16:05:17 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
16:05:20 <jugglinmike> present+ arigilmore
16:06:08 <jugglinmike> topic: Setup and Review Agenda
16:06:13 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-1%2C-2026-Agenda
16:06:40 <JoeLamyman> JoeLamyman has joined #aria-apg
16:07:04 <JoeLamyman> present+
16:08:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda?
16:08:17 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I had a couple small things to add
16:08:50 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: While updating one of the PRs listed in the agenda, I discovered a couple broken links. I opened a pull request with those fixes, and I was hoping to get that merged quickly
16:09:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ah yes. I can review that, so we probably don't need to dedicate meeting time (or an agenda item) for it
16:12:25 <Adam_Page> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3414
16:13:14 <Adam_Page> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3413
16:13:15 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: Another issue to add (link above). Valerie made a suggestion for ARIA
16:13:51 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: And still another one (link also shared above) concerns feedback from James Craig on Tab Actions
16:14:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Could you add the "agenda" label to those issues?
16:14:05 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: Sure
16:14:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next meeting: April 15
16:14:28 <jugglinmike> Topic: Publication planning
16:14:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are four pull requests that I want to check in on.
16:14:57 <jugglinmike> subtopic: PR 2991: Add Practice Page for Supporting Color Contrast Settings by mcking65
16:15:03 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2991
16:15:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: jongund_ do you want to implement this feedback, or should I?
16:15:24 <jugglinmike> jongund_: I can take care of it
16:15:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you! I think most of this feedback is pretty straightfoward
16:16:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: One part concerns the whole structure. Thanks to JoeLamyman for bringing a holistic perspective
16:16:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That is a clear and well-thought-out suggestion, so I think it's worth incorporating
16:16:24 <jugglinmike> subtopic: PR 3387: Developing a Keyboard Interface Practice: Clarify guidance for “Focusability of disabled controls” by adampage
16:16:29 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3387
16:16:47 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I've incorporated all feedback to date... As of half an hour ago
16:17:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great! I'll give this another read. We may be really close on this one.
16:17:15 <jugglinmike> subtopic: PR 3400: Revise Content for New Experimental Example of Scrollable Listbox with Actions on Options by mcking65
16:17:22 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3400
16:17:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Curt isn't present today, so I don't know if we can advance it right now
16:17:41 <jugglinmike> subtopic: PR 3418: Landmark Practice: Update alignment between HTML aside element and ARIA complementary role by NakajimaTakuya
16:17:46 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3418
16:18:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: jongund_ commented on this pull request, but it belongs to someone else
16:18:48 <jugglinmike> jongund_: Aside only generates complimentary roles if it's in the scope of the body element, the main element, or the header or footer element
16:18:58 <Daniel> present+ Daniel
16:19:01 <Daniel> q+
16:19:18 <jugglinmike> jongund_: But I also noticed that if you're using role=navigation or role=region, then that seems to impact the behavior
16:19:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The purpose of the AAM update was to limit it. It was supposed to be only complimentary if it was in the scope of body or main
16:19:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The fact that it's doing it inside of header or footer seems to be a bug. Those should be getting ignored (not complimentary)
16:20:22 <jugglinmike> jongund_: Chrome and Firefox are not ignoring under those circumstances
16:20:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That seems like a bug to me
16:21:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is the text of the pull request correctly reflecting what the guidance should be? Or are you saying that the text in the pull request needs to be updated?
16:22:07 <jugglinmike> jongund_: I saw the links to the AAM, but I didn't recognize that there was text to be reviewed. I will take a look offline
16:22:09 <jugglinmike> ack Daniel
16:23:29 <jugglinmike> Daniel: There are places where you need to create a complimentary within an aside. I was worried that we were enforcing a restriction across the board. But if the restriction only applies when it doesn't have a name, then I think that's fine
16:23:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that's what the HTML AAM language says
16:24:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This pull request in the APG isn't to say what should happen, of course. It's just to reflect what the specifications tell people
16:24:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So I want to make sure the language in the APG is aligned with the specification
16:24:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For what it's worth, I'm aligned with you. Just like with the section element--when it's named, then it will get revealed as a landmark
16:25:01 <jugglinmike> jongund_: I filed an issue for the HTML and ARIA spec to say that it isn't aligned with AAM
16:25:33 <jugglinmike> Daniel: One of the reasons it hasn't been addressed yet is because we're trying to publish what we're calling a "revised recommendation" to include the changes that have been made since 2021
16:25:53 <jugglinmike> Daniel: And this is making me think we may want to hold off on publishing that until we've resolved this issue
16:26:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If the AAM says that unnamed asides should only be complimentary when in body or main, then I think somebody needs to raise some bugs against Firefox and Chrome
16:27:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In any case, the goal here is to align the APG with the AAM
16:29:18 <jugglinmike> Topic: PR 3421: AlertDialog Pattern: Add guidance about use of aria-modal
16:29:25 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3421
16:29:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is a pretty straightforward pull request related to the alert-dialog pattern
16:30:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We didn't include aria-modal. We do point people to the modal-dialog pattern, but this change is to pull some of the content about modal directly into the alert dialog
16:30:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It seemed like a good change to me
16:30:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'd like someone else to take a look at the pull request also and see if you agree
16:30:45 <jugglinmike> JoeLamyman: I can review as well
16:30:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you!
16:30:56 <jugglinmike> Topic: Accordion keyboard issues
16:31:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are a mix of older and newer issues
16:31:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I thought it would be useful to look at a couple of these together
16:33:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll start with issue #3406 and reference our discussion from #357 if we find that it is relevant
16:33:22 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3406
16:33:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The person who raised the issue is representing that a conflict between the scrolling with arrow keys and moving between accordion header is a blocking problem
16:34:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have a lot of composite widgets that use the up and down arrow keys (e.g. menus, vertical tabs, list boxes, grids, etc.)
16:35:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The up and down arrow keys perform the function of navigating within the composite widget rather than scrolling the page. Generally, the way to handle that is to remove the focus from the widget
16:35:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But the accordion isn't a composite widget. It's a collection of independent headings that aren't truly connected to one another
16:35:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I guess that because of that, this accordion thing has always been kind of contrived
16:36:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But there are still things within Open-UI about making accordions. There seem to be some general conventions that say that accordion is an entity out there in the world and that people want some way to design and build them
16:36:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So in my head as I review this issue, I wonder if there should be any guidance at all regarding moving from one accordion to another
16:36:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think if we answer these questions, we will also address the related issue #357
16:37:11 <jugglinmike> jongund_: Our example doesn't use those keys
16:37:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's right. They are optional. There was a time where we implemented support for them, but we simplified it a lot. I believe Sarah removed them
16:37:58 <jugglinmike> jongund_: There are so many other things that people need to think about. If we don't implement them... Are there ones out there in the world that actually use these keys?
16:38:28 <jugglinmike> jongund_: There is no role that says "I am an accordion". If I don't know that I'm in an accordion, I'm never going to use those keys, anyway! I would just take them out
16:39:01 <jugglinmike> jongund_: This seems like an easy one to dispense with because in my opinion, we have higher-priority things to be working on
16:40:02 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: I think my company has a different accordion implementation that may need to be updated according to these guidelines
16:40:12 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: But we haven't come across these issues before
16:40:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The expand/collapse functionality of the accordion is sort of intended to help people get from one header to the next. If you want to move quickly between them with the keyboard, you just collapse the header, and the next one is usually just one or two tab stops away
16:42:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Way, way back (and I mean way back before we re-did the accordion pattern), the original accordion pattern that was never published in APG (circa 2014), there was an idea that the accordion headers were tabs. We scrapped that whole approach because there was no way to do the tab panel (or the "accordion pattern).
16:42:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This might just be a legacy of that original design
16:42:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So jongund_'s recommendation is to remove these keys
16:43:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The issue suggests assigning a different key, but that would still have the discoverability problem that jongund_ mentioned
16:43:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is there any objection to removing the keys as jongund_ has recommended?
16:43:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm not hearing any objections
16:43:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Adam_Page we discussed accordions in open-ui at TPAC. Is there anything related to this there?
16:43:55 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: I don't think so, but I may double-check
16:44:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It seems like it wouldn't be particularly disruptive if we eliminated the suggestion.
16:44:58 <jugglinmike> jongund_: The headers are there for navigation, so if you're using a screen reader, you can just use the "h" key to navigate to the next heading
16:45:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right. (It's still sort of stunning to me that browsers don't have built-in methodologies for things like that.)
16:46:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm looking at issue #357, now. That was about getting from inside the panel to the header.
16:46:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We don't have a key for collapsing the panel from inside the panel
16:47:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Going back to jongund_'s original point: it's not really a composite. It's more like a disclosure.
16:47:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think the answer here is the same. We removed it because there wasn't any real way of making it clear to people that that key is available. It's not a common thing; it's just something that was sort of made up to solve a problem. In practice, though, it doesn't actually solve the problem because there is no precedent (e.g. in native desktop implementations)
16:48:23 <jugglinmike> jongund_: I think it would be the same issue for the disclosure button. If you just had a disclosure button, you had some keyboard command to take you to that button
16:48:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I guess it's a little bit related to popover in a sense, but none of the popovers push stuff down. They always overlay
16:49:14 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: Exactly. Popovers are overlay by definition, as far as I'm concerned
16:49:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right, so in that case, when you have overlay, that's a visual clue that, "hey, I might be able to Escape out of this"
16:50:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: A lot of time when you have expanded or collapsed content, once you enter expanded content, you don't even realize that it's collapse-able
16:50:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Issue #3406 can't be closed without a patch because it will actually require us to remove that text from the pattern
16:51:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I will draft a pull request for that
16:51:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've assigned myself to this issue
16:52:13 <jugglinmike> topic: Issue 3391 : Questions about accordions when implemented with HTML 'name' attribute
16:52:20 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3391
16:52:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Prior to this, I didn't even know you could use the name attribute to help with the accordion implementation!
16:52:50 <jugglinmike> Adam_Page: That's new within the past two years or so
16:54:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you use details summary to make accordion sections, the summaries aren't used as headers (neither in the expanded nor collapsed state)
16:55:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I found a kludgey workaround, but no one should ever actually use that
16:55:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There was some Open-UI work related to this, somehow. I wish that someone would figure out some way to make a summary into a heading.
16:56:09 <Daniel> q+
16:56:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I thought that Aaron had taken that feedback and done something with it, but this was over a year ago, so I don't remember...
16:56:43 <jugglinmike> ack Daniel
16:57:12 <jugglinmike> Daniel: We do have details. Within the details, there's a summary. And within the summary there's a heading.
16:57:36 <jugglinmike> Daniel: I remember this was an issue with JAWS because it got rid of the semantics within the summary, but I think it works, now
16:57:54 <jugglinmike> Daniel: Basically, you put a regular heading within the summary
16:57:56 <Daniel> https://www.w3.org/WAI/resources/
16:58:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I thought HTML did not allow that
16:58:16 <jugglinmike> Daniel: I'll have to check, but I wouldn't be surprised if we fail HTML validation
16:58:26 <jugglinmike> Daniel: I shared a link above
16:58:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is one of those really good examples where, if we have a pure-HTML way to make an accordion example, it would be really good for us to do that. We could add it as a parallel example
16:59:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The questions in this issue are related to if you do this in HTML, can it be considered a fully-accessible accordion
16:59:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The issue is treating the APG as normative guidance
16:59:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The key thing that I wanted to highlight here is that this name attribute thing leaves out the heading aspect
17:00:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ah, but this is strange. The summary creates a button, and you can't have a heading inside a button. If the browser is switching it to a button inside a heading...
17:00:40 <jugglinmike> Daniel: This is something we should double-check
17:00:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It sounds like there may be some potential for making the APG's accordion without any JavaScript at all
17:01:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This might be raising the prospect of another pull request!
17:01:26 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
17:01:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jongund, jugglinmike, Adam_Page, jongund_, Matt_King, arigilmore, JoeLamyman, Daniel
17:01:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:01:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/01-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
17:01:37 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:01:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg