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12:02:48 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:02:56 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2026-03-26: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Mar/0019.html
12:02:57 <ivan> Chair: wendy
12:02:57 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:02:57 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Mar/0019.html
12:02:58 <ivan> regrets+ ToshiakiKoike
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12:59:49 <ivan> present+ sueneu
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13:02:55 <ivan> present+ hadrien
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13:03:03 <duga> wendyreid: More on annotations, starting with markdown as a supported body format
13:03:08 <wendyreid> Topic: Annotations - adding Markdown as an annotation body format - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2942
13:03:39 <ivan> regrets+ laurent
13:04:12 <duga> ivan: Originally it was about HTML not markdown, but I don't want to repeat that discussion
13:04:13 <Hadrien> present+
13:04:40 <duga> ... I expect internationalization review will have comments, which is I why I mentioned html
13:05:06 <duga> ... we had a long discussion on it, and the consensus was it would not be supported
13:05:24 <duga> ... but we still need something for i13n
13:05:33 <duga> ... so I changed to markdown
13:05:52 <duga> ... the spec already allows markdown
13:06:12 <duga> ... so we have to agree to support it
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13:06:24 <duga> ... and explain how it relates to i13n
13:06:33 <gpellegrino> present+
13:06:54 <duga> ... markdown generally allows adding html tags for certain things i13n related
13:07:14 <duga> ... but there are a lot of markdown implementations and levels
13:07:20 <duga> ... so we need to spec it specifically
13:07:51 <duga> ... there were also some voices that said we shouldn't have markdown either
13:08:03 <ajellinek> ajellinek has joined #pmwg
13:08:43 <duga> ... one practical thing - the way the impls work is by converting to html, that is how tag inclusion works
13:09:13 <duga> ... that would be a security issue, so we would need to use the sanitizer to clean that up
13:09:13 <Hadrien> q+
13:09:15 <duga> q+
13:09:25 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:09:27 <ivan> present+ ajellinek
13:09:50 <duga> Hadrien: I have less of an issue with markdown than html
13:10:10 <duga> ... I do have a concern about using it to sneakily add html
13:10:25 <duga> ... simple styling is fine (bold, etc) and it is easy to type
13:10:39 <ajellinek> q+
13:10:43 <ivan> q+
13:10:50 <duga> ... if we are using it to pull in html I an concerned, and I think most people will just sanitize it out
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13:11:03 <sueneu> q+
13:11:09 <duga> ... markdown is good because it is easy to enter
13:11:34 <duga> ivan: I agree the main reason is the styling
13:11:39 <sueneu> q-
13:11:45 <duga> ... but html will be important for i18n
13:12:04 <duga> ... so we can get past that review by pointing to the html support of markdown
13:12:13 <ivan> ack ivan
13:12:20 <duga> Hadrien: I think most implementations will just remove all html
13:12:37 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:12:54 <wendyreid> q+
13:13:03 <sueneu> duga: I worry about support for annotation styling
13:13:13 <sueneu> …markdown should be noted as at risk
13:13:23 <wendyreid> q-
13:13:26 <sueneu> …markdown has a good fall down to plain text
13:13:45 <sueneu> …using HTML tags as a back door is lying to get through the review
13:14:04 <sueneu> …outside of web readers you're putting annotations in a system level box
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13:14:14 <sueneu> …it will simply appear as HTML with tags
13:14:20 <CharlesL> present+
13:14:34 <sueneu> …no one is writing HTML fields
13:14:45 <sueneu> …I don't think this is a real way to get annotations in
13:14:51 <wendyreid> ack ajellinek
13:15:18 <duga> abe: we already store annotations as html
13:15:34 <duga> ... my main concern is markdown isn't very standardized
13:15:38 <sueneu> s/abe/ajelinek
13:15:57 <duga> ... it is no more secure than html
13:16:24 <duga> ... the dom sanitizer is not supported everywhere
13:16:45 <sueneu> q+
13:17:06 <duga> ... so as an implementor I don't want to see markdown in the standard
13:17:33 <duga> ... I don't want to be in the business of saying what tags are allowed
13:17:56 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:17:58 <duga> ... markdown is essentially a superset of html
13:18:17 <duga> sueneu: ajellinek, do you support i13n? vertical, rtl
13:18:33 <duga> ajellinek: rtl where it is supported, not vertical
13:18:41 <ivan> s/i13n/i18n/
13:19:00 <duga> q?
13:19:11 <duga> wendyreid: So there is no one true markdown
13:19:18 <ivan> q+
13:19:18 <duga> q+
13:19:22 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:19:30 <duga> ivan: let's separate these things
13:19:39 <duga> ... first is markdown, yes or no?
13:20:23 <duga> ... outside of that, the only 18n we have is unicode
13:20:51 <wendyreid> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7763
13:21:03 <duga> ... is our message to say we don't offer anything else?
13:21:09 <duga> q-
13:21:37 <ajellinek> q+
13:21:38 <duga> ... I have heard competing things
13:21:42 <wendyreid> ack ajellinek
13:22:21 <duga> ajellinek: I appreciate that we could help with i18n with markdown, but I don't think it is worth the security risk
13:22:43 <duga> ... and it forces implementors to add a lot of support for a feature that might be risky
13:23:00 <duga> sueneu: I did find the rfc markdown
13:23:10 <shiestyle> q+
13:23:10 <duga> q+
13:23:18 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:23:37 <duga> shiestyle: markdown or html will have issues with vertical text
13:23:48 <duga> ... I discussed with Japanese publishers
13:24:13 <duga> ... Makoto has discussed this as needed, but the publishers don't seem to care
13:24:25 <duga> ... I find plain text is just fine
13:24:33 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:24:58 <sueneu> duga: Makoto raised the issue that some people prefer to read vertically
13:25:09 <sueneu> …while some prefer to read horizontally
13:25:28 <wendyreid> q+
13:25:30 <sueneu> …and he noted that HTML is bad at that
13:25:45 <sueneu> …plain text is actually the most accessible thing we can do
13:26:02 <sueneu> …I don't think anyone in Japan has implemented vertical text in annotations
13:26:16 <sueneu> …I don't think the vertical horizontal switching is a reason to support
13:26:20 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:26:23 <sueneu> …either HTML or Markdown
13:26:57 <duga> wendyreid: markdown is nice, because it is readable without the styles
13:27:11 <duga> ... it doesn't stop you from being able to read it
13:28:09 <duga> ... if I want to use markdown syntax in plain text, I can, it just won't become styled. But maybe if my RS supports it, it will be fine. Otherwise it just stays plaintext, and is transfered as such
13:28:44 <duga> ... reading between the comments, we shouldn't officially support markdown, but reading systems can decide to add support if they want
13:29:00 <ivan> q+
13:29:03 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:29:23 <duga> ivan: is the proposal to remove the reference to markdown?
13:29:44 <duga> ... so the format must be plaintext, full stop
13:29:50 <duga> wendyreid: Yes
13:30:18 <duga> ... when someone reads the spec people may wonder why, so we may need to add a note explaining the choice
13:30:49 <duga> ivan: These days they like an i18n section
13:31:03 <duga> ... so we should explain that in practice html won't work here
13:31:16 <duga> ... I am happy to go that way and see what the powers that be say
13:31:30 <duga> wendyreid: We could include markdown as MAY
13:32:04 <duga> ivan: we are defining interchange, it doesn't make sense to say MAY, since that basically says nothing
13:32:30 <duga> ... we don't define what the RS does with these
13:32:42 <shiestyle> q+
13:32:49 <CharlesL> q+
13:32:49 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:32:51 <duga> wendyreid: EPUB is also interchange, and we have found people like it when we tell them what to do
13:33:09 <duga> shiestyle: RSes should delete the markdown to export
13:33:22 <CharlesL> q- that was my point export must be text only
13:33:22 <sueneu> q+
13:33:26 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:33:29 <duga> ivan: The export is all we are standardizing, so it doesn't make sense to say that
13:33:54 <duga> CharlesL: On export the RS would have to convert to plain text
13:34:22 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:34:25 <duga> wendyreid: That is why saying plaintext is a must implies that markdown is fine but may look funny
13:34:54 <CharlesL> q+
13:34:58 <duga> sueneu: supporting markdown is a legitimate feature of RSes, so staying neutral is a good idea
13:34:59 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:35:16 <DaleRogers> q+
13:35:28 <duga> CharlesL: For a11y side, markdown gives structure, then a screen reader could utilize it
13:35:36 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:36:00 <ajellinek> q+
13:36:05 <wendyreid> ack ajellinek
13:36:06 <duga> DaleRogers: I am hearing reluctance, can the spec kick the can down the road and tell people to check reading system support?
13:36:42 <duga> ajellinek: If we did that we would want to tag the text as markdown, so we don't confuse plain text and markdown
13:37:08 <GeorgeK> q+
13:37:11 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:37:11 <duga> wendyreid: We can always kick things down the road!
13:37:57 <duga> GeorgeK: If somebody put in markdown, then the rs would have to strip it out on export
13:38:27 <duga> ... then if someone put in markdown, it would just go in as markdown in the plain text
13:38:36 <ajellinek> q+
13:39:03 <duga> ... On the a11y side, most people understand plain text, I am not sure how much regular people know about markdown
13:39:13 <wendyreid> ack ajellinek
13:39:32 <duga> ... they also tend to be short, so they don't need as much help (the length of annotations)
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13:39:54 <duga> ajellinek: The RS could use WYSIWYG editing, so they may not know anything about markdown to use it
13:39:59 <ivan> +1 to ajellinek
13:40:34 <duga> wendyreid: I think we have consensus in plaintext as the default for annotation bodies
13:41:07 <duga> ... we know people will use markdown in annotations. Lots of tools support it
13:41:45 <duga> ... but we also know there are multple types of markdown
13:42:25 <duga> ... the question for us is, do we want to say MAY use markdown, or just say plaintext only with a note about the decision
13:42:33 <duga> q?
13:42:34 <duga> q+
13:42:39 <ivan> +1 to wendyreid
13:42:39 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:43:02 <sueneu> duga: Do we want to say that rs MAY use markdown
13:43:08 <ivan> q+
13:43:16 <sueneu> …doesn't solve the problem of which markdown we support
13:43:20 <duga> ivan: I agree. I don't think MAY helps
13:44:11 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pmwg
13:44:13 <duga> ... let us try to make a resolution for plain text as the normative part, with a note about markdown (no single makrdown, not many implementations in RSes)
13:45:20 <wendyreid> Proposed: For annotation bodies, plain text will be the interchange format.
13:45:27 <sueneu> +1
13:45:27 <wendyreid> +1
13:45:28 <ajellinek> +1
13:45:29 <shiestyle> +1
13:45:29 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
13:45:29 <ivan> +1
13:45:29 <kimberg> +1
13:45:29 <sethd> +1
13:45:30 <duga> +1
13:45:31 <gman> +1
13:45:32 <DaleRogers> +1
13:45:36 <gpellegrino> +1
13:45:39 <CharlesL> +1
13:45:40 <Hadrien> +1
13:45:47 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: For annotation bodies, plain text will be the interchange format.
13:46:00 <GeorgeK> +1
13:46:14 <duga> ivan: We will have to do a PR to remove it
13:46:23 <wendyreid> Topic: SMIL TF
13:46:56 <duga> Hadrien: I discussed with laurent and gautier, we think a task force makes sense
13:47:15 <duga> ... the TF may not need regular calls, we can work async on many topics
13:47:45 <duga> ... the issues have been very popular
13:48:12 <duga> ... we think most people will be interested in chiming in in issues
13:48:30 <duga> ... so calls won't be the standard work mode
13:48:33 <ivan> q+
13:48:38 <duga> wendyreid: That is fine
13:49:08 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:49:18 <duga> ... more participation is great
13:49:29 <duga> ivan: Do you need any resources?
13:49:50 <duga> Hadrien: Not really. we just need an official task force so it shows up
13:50:07 <duga> ... we will probably use discord or slack
13:50:14 <GeorgeK> q+
13:50:29 <duga> ivan: Just make sure to properly label the issues as for the TF
13:51:16 <duga> Hadrien: can I set the labels?
13:51:19 <duga> ivan: yes
13:51:22 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:51:27 <duga> wendyreid: and if you need new ones, let us know
13:52:00 <duga> GeorgeK: So this is pm only not joint cg/wg
13:52:34 <duga> Hadrien: Yes, we thought it made sense since we are making normative changes
13:52:51 <duga> wendyreid: Yes, anyone can participate in the github issues
13:53:08 <duga> ... so if that get's people interested, that is great
13:53:39 <duga> ... we can get people in as guests for short term
13:53:43 <duga> ... when needed
13:54:27 <duga> wendyreid: Any other topics?
13:54:39 <sethd> q+
13:54:40 <Hadrien> q+
13:54:44 <wendyreid> ack sethd
13:54:46 <duga> duga: Are we doing tpac?
13:54:51 <duga> wendyreid: yes
13:55:27 <ivan> q+
13:55:30 <duga> sethd: There is a lot to be said for async. Meetings are hard to make
13:55:49 <duga> ... github is very permanent, our slack is entirely unused
13:56:03 <duga> .. slack seems like a good place to discuss things
13:56:05 <DaleRogers> q+
13:56:25 <duga> ivan: It depends on the channel
13:56:35 <duga> ... for instance the chairs and editors use it a lot
13:56:49 <duga> ... it is possible to set up a channel for SMIL
13:57:17 <duga> sethd: I meant more generally
13:57:20 <duga> q+
13:57:37 <duga> ... nothing progresses because we don't have time
13:57:55 <ivan> ack ivan
13:57:58 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:57:58 <duga> shiestyle: slack deletes comments on the w3c slack
13:58:15 <duga> Hadrien: I think you may be able to get slack for free
13:58:23 <duga> ivan: it didn't work out
13:58:56 <duga> Hadrien: Do we have influence on early in the week? I prefer early to avoid conflict
13:59:15 <duga> wendyreid: We always request MT, we will hopefully get that again
13:59:17 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:59:37 <duga> DaleRogers: response to Seth  about informal places to chat
13:59:55 <duga> ... we discussed discussions
14:00:02 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:00:22 <sueneu> duga: saying things are available are great, if we aren't specific about using it
14:00:29 <sueneu> …it won't get used.
14:00:42 <sueneu> …it would be nice to have someplace to ask a quick question that
14:00:51 <sueneu> …doesn't get saved in the archive
14:01:00 <sueneu> …it might be nice to mandate something like that
14:01:32 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:01:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/03/26-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
14:01:49 <sueneu> q-
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