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12:25:47 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:26:00 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2026-03-19: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Mar/0010.html
12:26:00 <ivan> Chair: wendy
12:26:00 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:26:00 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Mar/0010.html
12:26:01 <ivan> regrets+ DaleRogers
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13:00:02 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
13:00:17 <duga> present+
13:01:12 <ivan> present+
13:01:23 <ivan> present+ charles
13:01:31 <ivan> present+ sueneu
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13:07:25 <wendyreid> Topic: SMIL TF?
13:07:28 <ivan> present+ gpellegrino
13:07:35 <sueneu> scribe sueneu
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13:08:09 <ivan> s/scribe sueneu//
13:08:10 <sueneu> wendyreid: Should there be a SMIL taskforce?
13:08:17 <Hadrien> q+
13:08:21 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:08:29 <sueneu> …SMIL needs attention but  might need some room to breathe
13:08:52 <sueneu> Hadrien: since I made most of the issues, should I lead the task force?
13:08:59 <mgarrish> present+
13:09:13 <sueneu> wendyreid: we can invite members of the community group
13:09:28 <GeorgeK> q+
13:09:33 <sueneu> …in this matter, there are people outside the group who have been implementing SMIL for years
13:10:11 <sueneu> Hadrien: I am OK to do this, we need to fix the spec, we cannot do what is currently in the spec
13:10:30 <sueneu> …how many people from this group would want to join?
13:10:35 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:10:43 <sueneu> …would we have good discussions on regular calls?
13:11:08 <sueneu> GeorgeK: What is the goal? Do we want to modify it and bring it forward?
13:11:16 <ivan> q+
13:11:17 <Hadrien> q+
13:11:32 <sueneu> …would we be updating the whole specification? or make a subset of SMIL?
13:11:53 <sueneu> ivan: I know we are not allowed to touch the original SMIL spec
13:12:03 <sueneu> …another group is charted to do that
13:12:27 <sueneu> …the SMIL spec we are referring to is a subset of the big SMIL set
13:12:39 <sueneu> …that is part of EPUB. We can change the subset
13:13:26 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:13:29 <sueneu> …I didn't see anything in what Hadrien said that would require changing the SMIL spec
13:13:42 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:14:16 <sueneu> Hadrien: like what @ivan said, our issues are more about how we use SMIL
13:14:26 <sueneu> …and not the specification itself
13:14:48 <sueneu> …the cross-resources issue might be an exception
13:15:09 <sueneu> …where text goes across the left/right of a spread or through a roll publication
13:15:18 <sueneu> …we should be fine not changing SMIL
13:15:31 <GeorgeK> q+
13:15:37 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
13:15:42 <sueneu> wendyreid: If we don't have to change SMIL, it is just about EPUB
13:16:12 <sueneu> GeorgeK: Can we add video to what is in the [par?]
13:16:34 <sueneu> ivan: the original spec had a video element
13:16:52 <sueneu> Hadrien: and we have a PR for adding image support
13:17:12 <sueneu> …who in this group would like to participate in the TF?
13:17:38 <sueneu> LaurentLM: I would. I deal more with desktop Thorium, while Hadrien deals with mobile
13:18:04 <sueneu> …Hadrien is now discovering things we didn't work on with the desktop implementation
13:18:38 <duga> q+
13:18:41 <sueneu> wendyreid: We may have to send out an email since some of the folks who might be interested are not here
13:18:47 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:19:10 <sueneu> duga: I don't see Google or Apple here, it would be interesting to reach out to them to participate
13:19:11 <Hadrien> q+
13:19:23 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:19:42 <sueneu> Hadrien: Outside of this group, people might be interested but may not have time to contribute
13:20:10 <sueneu> …we have the lead developer of Storyteller, who has experience with production and reading systems
13:20:24 <sueneu> …specialized libraries will have an interest in this topic
13:20:35 <duga> q+
13:20:41 <sueneu> …there might be people in DAISY who are interested in this topic
13:20:59 <sueneu> …and people on larger platforms who are following our discussions
13:21:01 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:21:31 <sueneu> duga: If we don't form a joint task for with the working group, we guarantee that most of those people won't be involved.
13:21:32 <ivan> q+
13:21:44 <sueneu> …since they will have to join the community group
13:21:52 <LaurentLM> q+
13:21:54 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:22:01 <sueneu> …it might be nice to get some new blood
13:22:21 <sueneu> ivan: at this point, a task force in the community group would be easy to set up
13:22:28 <LaurentLM> q-
13:22:42 <sueneu> …it is a good workflow to have the community group incubate the ideas and then pass them to us
13:23:03 <sueneu> …we have enough people in this WG to complete the standards update
13:23:21 <sueneu> …we might end up with a whole series of invited experts and that could cause problems
13:23:47 <Hadrien> q+
13:23:48 <sueneu> …gautier has said he cannot join us because of schedule conflict
13:24:00 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:24:12 <sueneu> …this is a discussion we should have with him because he is co chair of the CG
13:24:29 <sueneu> Hadrien: some of this work is very central to the spec.
13:24:46 <sueneu> …some of these issues are not raising new features, but changing the spec
13:25:02 <sueneu> ivan: the CG is completely free to choose its own work
13:25:16 <sueneu> Hadrien: do we imagine the CG would create PRs?
13:25:42 <sueneu> ivan: the CG would develop work that should be put in the PR by someone who is also in this group
13:26:08 <sueneu> Hadrien: some of the issues have lots of dicussion, and people may not feel the need for more discussion.
13:26:24 <sueneu> …like text fragments. The people involved are ready to move to PR
13:26:38 <sueneu> …I should be the one to set up the PR
13:26:56 <sueneu> ivan: that is no problem because you are a member of the Working Group
13:27:40 <sueneu> wendyreid: We've made progress. It doesn't have to be a formal task force and it can run asynchronisly
13:28:01 <sueneu> Hadrien: I might just ask people to put things in writing on GitHub
13:28:16 <wendyreid> Topic: F2F at TPAC?
13:28:19 <sueneu> wendyreid: and that's fine
13:29:03 <Hadrien> +1 for having a F2F meeting in Dublin
13:29:13 <sueneu> wendyreid: TPAC is in Dublin, easy for the European and East coast members, not so much for Asian and West coast members
13:29:27 <sueneu> ivan: the TPAC is the 26th of October
13:29:45 <ivan> +1 for a f2f
13:30:07 <sueneu> wendyreid: I'll keep an eye out for further information after the AC meeting
13:30:24 <sueneu> @ivan: @hadrien that did come up
13:30:45 <sueneu> wendyreid: maybe we can have a virtual face to face?
13:31:05 <sueneu> …I'm not sure any of us have the energy to plan a face to face before October
13:31:16 <sueneu> wendyreid: I
13:31:37 <sueneu> …I'll keep an eye out for when to ask for time at TPAC
13:31:41 <wendyreid> Topic: Use JSON-LD keywords for language and direction - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2950
13:32:00 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2854
13:32:02 <sueneu> …ivan, can you explain this topic?
13:32:27 <sueneu> ivan: we have to talk about language and language direction in strings in annotations
13:32:39 <LaurentLM> link to the body language and textDirection: https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub34/annotations/#body
13:32:41 <sueneu> …the current draft has a field for text direction that has two problems.
13:33:02 <sueneu> …it is only for the body and doesn't solve other text, like titles and descriptions
13:33:21 <sueneu> …json LD now has a built-in feature to set language and direction
13:33:40 <sueneu> …my original issue is that we should use what we get in jsonLD
13:34:02 <sueneu> …and not duplicate things. It would solve the missing setting for other natural language text fields
13:34:22 <LaurentLM> q+
13:34:44 <sueneu> …I've defined the solution and written a PR that we use JSON LD
13:35:09 <sueneu> …I described part of the JSON LD that are usable in my view in annotaitons
13:35:24 <sueneu> …i dont want to go into detail in the syntax
13:35:47 <sueneu> …if we set another block we can use JSON LD to set the language and direction
13:36:01 <sueneu> …it would then apply to everything in the tree underneath
13:36:16 <sueneu> …you can still have local overrides
13:36:29 <sueneu> …two open questions that need a decision
13:36:55 <sueneu> …there is a way in the JSON LD syntax to set the language and direction in a single text field
13:37:22 <sueneu> …which uses a different syntax and can be confusing
13:37:46 <sueneu> …we may not have to specify values for single strings
13:37:57 <sueneu> …I don't think we need to add this to the spec
13:38:13 <sueneu> …I would like some feedback on this
13:38:29 <sueneu> …is it a must to add language and direction?
13:38:48 <sueneu> …or is it a should? We should do the same for the annotations spec
13:39:04 <sueneu> …this has a slight effect on the vocabulary so we should make a decision
13:39:43 <sueneu> mgarrish: we don't have a requirement in the package document, but it is required for accessibility
13:40:06 <duga> q+
13:40:08 <sueneu> …setting the language of the publication is required, but not setting the language of the HTML
13:40:31 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:40:34 <sueneu> ivan: in the pacakge doc, if we say it is a must to specify the DC language, the we should do the same for the annotations spec
13:40:57 <sueneu> LaurentLM: web annotations are based on JSON LD
13:41:18 <sueneu> …programmers work with JSON not JSON LD
13:41:34 <sueneu> …to go too far with JSON LD is dangerous for developers
13:42:02 <duga> q-
13:42:07 <sueneu> …using language direction is a small improvement for annotaitons
13:42:35 <sueneu> …I would like to see that use case for adding language and language direction before we implement this
13:42:55 <sueneu> …we had this same discussion with web publications. The outcome was to
13:43:23 <sueneu> …web publication spec can give us some continuity
13:43:40 <LaurentLM> Readium Web Publications: https://readium.org/webpub-manifest/contexts/default/#title
13:43:40 <sueneu> …readium web publications have chosen another path
13:44:07 <sueneu> …if you want multiple languages you use the language code, language is mapping to JSON LD
13:44:22 <LaurentLM> W3C WEb Publications: https://www.w3.org/TR/pub-manifest/#manifest-lang-dir-local
13:44:27 <sueneu> …this seems easier to master than the example in the web publication W3C spec
13:44:54 <sueneu> ivan: I realized while doing this, that what we have in web publications is buggy
13:45:07 <sueneu> …you cannot use the alias within the context
13:45:40 <sueneu> LaurentLM: having the abilty specify language locally is important
13:45:58 <sueneu> …to have it at the top, and setting the direction, at the top makes sense
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13:46:26 <sueneu> ivan: it is clear that we cannot use language and direction in the body that the way it is now
13:47:09 <sueneu> …it is not now the JSON LD specification, you cannot specify the language and have it be recognized
13:47:42 <sueneu> …the mapping you have in Readium is valid JSON LD and can be used
13:48:02 <sueneu> …but since it doesn't handle direction we might have problems with internationalization
13:48:24 <sueneu> …we rarely have a case where we want to express the same thing with 3 different languages
13:48:27 <sueneu> q+
13:49:14 <duga> scribe+
13:49:29 <duga> sueneu: Use cases are rare where you want to say things in different languages
13:49:34 <duga> ... but I do this all the time
13:49:52 <duga> ivan: In general that is true, but the question is does this happen in annotations
13:50:06 <duga> sueneu: Absolutely. This could be very helpful
13:50:14 <duga> ... you could have English annotations
13:50:47 <duga> ivan: that is not really what we are talking about. We need to specify the language you made the annotation in
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13:51:33 <duga> q?
13:51:33 <LaurentLM> q?
13:51:36 <gman> q+
13:51:38 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:51:41 <wendyreid> ack gman
13:51:50 <sueneu> @laurentLM it looks like this needs more discussion
13:52:26 <sueneu> @gman: I think there is a use case here, which could be annotation of a translation and discussion that could take place in two languages
13:52:41 <ivan> q+
13:53:11 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:53:12 <sueneu> wendyreid: this could be more about the accessiblity issue where if the language isn't marked up properly screen readers can lead to some interesting publications
13:53:39 <sueneu> …in theory, I could add a word in a second language within an annotation
13:53:53 <sueneu> ivan: which leads us to the discussion of HTML in annotations
13:54:07 <sueneu> …if we can use markdown in the body, like the markdown in github
13:54:08 <duga> q+
13:54:36 <sueneu> …that does allow some HTML, so you could manually set a span with the correct language tag, it would cover that issue
13:54:55 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:54:56 <sueneu> …if we really what to mix the language inside the body, we could use multiple bodies
13:55:22 <sueneu> duga: Github technically doesn't support HTML but doesn't strip them out
13:55:37 <sueneu> …so it displays correctly in a browser
13:55:57 <sueneu> …I don't know if there is a version of Markdown that allows Ruby
13:56:10 <sueneu> …I'm not even sure markdown will make it through rec
13:56:41 <sueneu> @ivan: for those issues, we will have face an international review,
13:56:59 <sueneu> …if we cannot set the language and direction in the right place, we will not get the sign off
13:57:23 <sueneu> wendyreid: Let's leave it at that, we have more to do on the language question
13:57:56 <sueneu> …otherwise, thank you everyone for a great meeting. See you all next week
13:58:32 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:58:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/03/19-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
13:58:53 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
13:58:53 <RRSAgent> I see no action items