14:37:25 RRSAgent has joined #vcwg 14:37:30 logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/03/11-vcwg-irc 14:37:30 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:37:31 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan 14:37:40 Meeting: Verifiable Credentials Working Group Telco 14:37:40 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2026Mar/0001.html 14:37:40 chair: brentz, phila 14:37:40 ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2026-03-11: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2026Mar/0001.html 14:58:26 phila has joined #vcwg 14:58:33 hsano has joined #vcwg 14:58:43 present+ 15:00:51 present+ 15:01:12 present+ isaac 15:01:21 present+ bigbluehat 15:01:28 present+ phila 15:01:35 present+ will 15:01:42 present+ manu 15:02:13 Wip has joined #vcwg 15:02:15 present+ 15:02:37 present+ dmitriz 15:02:43 bigbluehat has joined #vcwg 15:03:01 present+ 15:03:01 scribe+ 15:03:01 present+ 15:03:02 present+ jandrieu 15:03:13 phila: thanks bigbluehat for scribing 15:03:13 present+ elaine 15:03:23 ... we'll be covering the new charter which was approved today 15:03:25 q+ to agenda+ just some PRs on VCDM. 15:03:34 ... I've got an update on the VCDM 15:03:38 ... and we'll talk about the F2F in June 15:03:38 Topic: new charter 15:03:52 ... ivan can you tell us about the new charter 15:03:59 https://www.w3.org/2026/03/vc-wg-charter.html 15:04:05 ivan: just announced about an hour ago 15:04:08 ... we made it! 15:04:18 ... there were some minor changes at the last round with the management 15:04:25 ... stuff we added to the tentative deliverable list 15:04:49 ... we made explicit what was implicitly there--that there must be IPR agreements before the WG can accept them 15:04:57 ... there are three documents from "outside" 15:05:05 ... so we had to add some text about monitoring the IPR 15:05:11 ... that's the most important change that we've done 15:05:37 PDL has joined #vcwg 15:05:37 ... one of the titles did have "European" in it--which we removed to make it clear that these are global standards 15:05:46 ... you also likely got emails about being kicked out of the WG 15:05:52 ... but you will also be invited to rejoin 15:06:11 ... that's about it. 15:06:20 phila: great work everyone. congrats! 15:06:29 KevinDean has joined #vcwg 15:06:29 ... please reapply for the jobs you were just fired from 15:06:33 ... I do hope everyone will 15:06:33 present+ 15:06:42 ... if you've been debating about joining, I hope you do 15:06:49 present+ PDL 15:06:56 ... I'll be syncing up with Brent soon, so we can plan how we'll do all this work 15:07:13 ... if we focus on just what we MUST do--which was discussed at TPAC last year 15:07:22 ... VCALM, Bar Codes, etc. all need to be done 15:07:33 present+ dlongley 15:07:35 ... and VCDMv2 PRs 15:07:49 ... even if we don't get to the tentative deliverables, there's still loads to do 15:07:59 ... if you put your hand up as an editor, it's time to start 15:08:06 ... we'll likely be doing more frequent calls 15:08:06 q+ 15:08:16 ... how often these "everybody" calls should be? 15:08:30 manu: I think the big group call at once of month is fine 15:08:38 q+ 15:08:44 ack manu 15:08:44 manu, you wanted to agenda+ just some PRs on VCDM. and to 15:08:46 ... we used to do them weekly and some concurrent special topic calls 15:08:56 ... we do have existing meetings happening under the CCG 15:09:07 ... we can shift those to WG meetings, but folks will need to change their status 15:09:14 ... and we'll have to deal with attendance as we go 15:09:26 ... but we do already have existing meetings for most of these work items 15:09:39 ... the good news is that I don't think it will take a tremendous amount of reshuffling 15:09:50 ... as long as it's OK to shift those existing meetings 15:09:56 ivan: just to be legalistic 15:10:02 ... I'd prefer we have weekly meetings 15:10:15 ... we could still pick specific topics occasionally, like Render Method 15:10:26 ... mainly, because the small group meetings are not allowed to make binding decisions 15:10:41 ... so if any resolution is needed, it would have to happen in the "big" call 15:11:00 ... so, I'd suggest a "big call" once a week, but also continue the small group meetings 15:11:17 phila: so...no one likes to go to meetings they don't feel needed at 15:11:21 ... so, here's an idea 15:11:29 q+ to note that 90 minutes are a bit rough. 15:11:37 30/30? 15:11:37 ... what if we did a 90 minute call, and a 60 minute calls on the smaller topics 15:11:38 +1 weekly timeslot which can be cancelled if there's nothing to do. All lower frequencies fall off people's mental if not other calendars. 15:11:44 ack ivan 15:11:46 present+ 15:11:49 ivan: many of us have conflicts afterward 15:11:58 manu: same problem here 15:12:04 ... I think what we've been doing has been working well 15:12:16 frequent cancellations can be confusing -- bringing any resolutions to the monthly meeting might be the way to go -- for all specs 15:12:19 ... I do think we should meet more often for Render Method and Confidence Method 15:12:27 ... which currently trade off, so there's often 2 weeks between 15:12:36 (my "cancellations" comment is in response to ted) 15:12:39 ... and folks are getting confused about which topic is the current call topic 15:12:54 ... to be clear, we're already talking about 7 hours of calls a week 15:12:56 ... which is insane 15:13:02 ... we're already doing 5 hours of calls 15:13:03 (I don't expect frequent cancellations, as I think we pretty much always have stuff to do.) 15:13:12 ... the current cadence seems fine to move things forward 15:13:21 ... but we should really lean on the editors to ask for more call time 15:13:30 ... and the group that is meeting can inform the schedule 15:13:53 phila: so I know we've got 3 meetings in conflict on this current call time 15:14:02 ... but VCALM is at a different time 15:14:09 ... folks on that will have to resign and rejoin 15:14:25 ... Elaine, is the Bar Code group meeting happening? 15:14:33 Elaine: we were waiting on the recharter 15:14:42 ... manu, what was the call schedule before? 15:14:59 manu: we haven't met for awhile, I would suggest, though, that we keep it separate 15:15:05 ... really the editors should inform it 15:15:29 phila: to get to CR in 18 months... 15:15:37 ... some of these will be easy, some specs will not be 15:15:46 .... so, let's move on 15:15:52 topic: VCDM 15:16:06 manu: just drawing people's attention to some PRs 15:16:14 https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pulls 15:16:16 ... Lehn sent a PR about referencing Render Method 15:16:21 ... there are some suggested changes 15:16:36 ... then a few more PRs raised yesterday about some class # changes 15:16:53 ... but we'll give those the usual "week" review time 15:17:04 phila: how far are we from VCDM v2.1? 15:17:18 manu: v2.1 is supposed to be a refresh, no new features, that sort of thing 15:17:25 ... we could do it today, but I don't think we should 15:17:35 ... I think we should let the other specs mature a bit more before we rev VCDM 15:17:49 ... because they, like Confidence Method, may effect what goes into VCDMv2.1. 15:17:53 +1 to let the other specs mature to see if we need new features, but hopefully not as it saves us more work 15:18:11 q+ 15:18:14 ... at minimum, we're likely to make changes to the context 15:18:21 ... and the process around CR can be pretty heavy 15:18:36 ... so I'd suggest we attempt Rec for VCDMv2.1 in a year 15:18:43 ivan: have we published it as a FPWD yet? 15:18:45 manu: no 15:18:54 ivan: so to make it official, we should at least do that 15:18:59 q+ 15:19:04 ... which will start the IPR process, etc. 15:19:06 manu: +1 to that 15:19:11 ... I'm happy to move that forward 15:19:34 ... I think what we said was that we were not going to publish a FPWD until we're sure it's needed 15:19:55 ... like Bitstring Status List doesn't look like it needs any changes, so we wouldn't rev it's version 15:20:04 ivan: correct. I was only talking about VCDMv2.1 15:20:10 manu: great. Just wanted to clarify that scope 15:20:26 phila: if this group exists for anything, it's for the maintenance of the VCDMv2.1 15:20:41 ... we do need a resolution 15:20:52 ... but I would like to check in with Brent first 15:21:25 ... during the lifetime of this charter--which started today--if we don't think we'll be to CR for a year, then we should plan the rest of the process 15:21:35 ... clearly, the VCDM is the core specification for this group 15:21:35 topic: VC specifications published with ISO 15:21:48 phila: and a question has been raised around whether we should push it through the ISO process 15:21:56 ... Rigo wants to make it happen 15:21:57 q+ to support publication of W3C VC specs via ISO PAS. 15:22:02 ... I and Brent are in favor of it 15:22:07 q+ 15:22:07 q+ 15:22:15 ack manu 15:22:15 manu, you wanted to note that 90 minutes are a bit rough. and to and to support publication of W3C VC specs via ISO PAS. and to 15:22:18 manu: +1 to doing that 15:22:33 ... I think we should use the process to get ISO equivalence 15:23:04 ivan: we're working on a tool that can be used for this process 15:23:14 q+ to ask "which specs"? 15:23:19 ... so wait a bit phila but there are some good things coming, hopefully 15:23:26 ... we're also hearing conflicting things from ISO 15:23:35 ... do we need to produce a PDF or a Word file? 15:24:08 ... do we need to match the ISO style? 15:24:08 q? 15:24:11 ack iv 15:24:15 ... we're fighting to get permission to avoid that kind of a revision 15:24:22 ... I don't want to get into all those details 15:24:33 ... we mainly need to know if this group supports it at ISO 15:24:38 ack manu 15:24:38 manu, you wanted to ask "which specs"? 15:24:42 manu: which one of our specs should we do? 15:24:45 +1 to doing all the specs 15:24:49 ... my suggestion is as many as possible 15:25:11 q+ 15:25:21 ... especially, whichever ones provide the foundation for an interoperable ecosystem 15:25:44 ... also, I have seen ISO spec's published that are 2 page PDFs which point to other specs 15:25:55 ... and people buy the PDF that contains the link... 15:26:08 ... I don't know what the process for that is, but we should at least ask about it 15:26:25 ivan: for the which document question: it comes back to this WG 15:26:38 ... the idea from management is to start with the VCDM to learn the process 15:26:47 ... and once we understand the process, we try to do all the others 15:26:58 ack ivan 15:27:19 ivan: for the second question, they have made the process harder in recent years 15:27:28 ... WCAG has just gone to ISO and published their work 15:27:34 ... and it had to be converted to Word 15:27:45 q+ 15:27:46 ... but he did make the case that the text could stay the same 15:27:49 ... but the format changed 15:28:02 ... if anyone can help change things at ISO, please do 15:28:44 phila: if we just do VCDM, does that create an ecosystem on it's own? 15:28:58 ... or does it need Data Integrity, Bitstring Status List, etc? 15:29:04 ack manu 15:29:07 manu: yes +1 to that 15:29:10 ... we should look into 15:29:27 ... I know ISO standards do reference other specs, so maybe we only need to ISO VCDM 15:29:40 ... I'd be minus one on bundling everything together 15:30:00 ... then the excuse can become, we followed the ISO bundled version published 10 years ago 15:30:05 ... my hope is that wouldn't happen 15:30:24 ... but it is why I'd prefer VCDM be the primary one and reference the others 15:30:33 ... however, I don't think VCDM does not reference all the related parts 15:30:34 https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/#normative-references 15:30:49 ... it may reference Data Integrity, but not the cryptosuites 15:31:04 ... but I agree starting with VCDM makes sense 15:31:21 ... so, a long term option may be to help Respec make Word docs 15:31:38 ... there's an open XML format for Word from a decade ago 15:31:47 ... but we'd need to be clear that it's auto-generated 15:31:54 q+ 15:32:12 ... the danger is that the changes would end up in the W3C spec...which would not be wanted 15:32:24 ivan: yeah, that should be prevented. W3C is in charge of it's specs. 15:32:30 ... we keep the IPR. We keep it free. 15:32:39 ack ivan 15:32:42 ... and W3C standards MUST keep it's same weight as before 15:33:15 phila: there are others who have views on getting VCDM v2.0 into the ISO? 15:33:24 ... it would be the only spec at ISO for at least at year 15:34:01 PDL: I'd support getting the VCDM in makes sense 15:34:05 q+ 15:34:08 ack dlongley 15:34:14 q+ 15:34:17 ... and we've got too much other work to do before trying to get the others there 15:34:26 dlongley: we do need to check the normative references 15:34:42 q+ 15:34:45 ack manu 15:34:45 ... not sure we can update the VCDM without having to rev the spec when we add them 15:34:51 ... but we do need to make sure the links are there 15:34:57 manu: +1 to the idea 15:35:17 ... we do point to Data Integrity and VC JOSE Cose, but neither of those point to the cryptosuites 15:35:27 q+ 15:35:44 ... so, when we do the ISO thing, we should provide a list of normative things in the ISO spec 15:35:45 +1 to Manu's suggestion 15:35:46 ack phila 15:36:02 phila: I do have a limited experience with ISO 15:36:15 ... I know from that experience and others that they worry a lot about normative references 15:36:35 ... recently there was a big deal made about "informative references" being taken out--what they call a bibliography 15:37:04 ... so if we really feel the cryptosuites and things need to be an ISO standard, we will need to discuss that 15:37:32 ... but at minimum, we need to get the VCDM into ISO so it can be pointed to by regulators and those who only do that 15:37:51 ack ivan 15:37:53 q+ 15:37:58 q+ 15:38:57 ack bigbluehat 15:39:07 It also matters in some instances when procurements are being done by some organizations 15:39:23 ack ivan 15:39:44 ivan: I am not sure the indirect reference will work in terms of ISO 15:40:19 phila: it's that normative references to other things become normative for the ISO spec 15:40:20 q+ 15:40:36 ack dlongley 15:40:37 ... so when I wrote a standard that pointed to the URI spec at the IETF, that spec became part of the other one 15:41:11 q+ 15:41:15 ack manu 15:41:31 manu: I think the thing we want to do can be worked out as we take the journy 15:41:37 s/journy/journey 15:42:16 q+ 15:42:41 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The WG would like to submit VCDM 2.0 (https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/) to the ISO PAS process 15:42:44 ivan: do we want to go with VCDMv2.0 vs. v2.1? 15:42:45 ack ivan 15:42:47 manu: v2.0 15:42:49 phila: agreed 15:43:02 ... it's because v2.1 is a long way out 15:43:16 ivan: won't the ISO process take the same amount of time? 15:43:33 phila: yes, but what gets published is what's sent in at the start of the process 15:43:33 This is being played out in the mDL server verification recommendation dispute (aka "no phone home") 15:43:41 ... so we have to start with something that's complete 15:44:03 q+ 15:44:07 q+ 15:44:08 ack manu 15:44:18 ... I wasn't sure at the beginning of the call, but if v2.1 will take a year (as it sounds), then we'd be delaying the whole thing 15:44:24 manu: I think we should do 2.0 15:44:28 ... there is an upgrade process 15:44:45 ... so you'd get an ISO # like ISO####:YYYY version 15:44:47 +1 to do 2.0 and use the upgrade process 15:44:54 ack ivan 15:45:05 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The WG would like to submit VCDM 2.0 (https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/) to the ISO PAS process 15:45:15 ... so, I definitely think we should start with v2.0 15:45:20 +1 to submitting 2.0 and use the update process that ISO uses 15:45:22 ivan: can we put that in the resolution? 15:45:32 ... state that we plan to update it? 15:45:44 ... I just don't want us to be stuck 15:46:02 phila: let's try that one then 15:46:03 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The WG would like to submit VCDM 2 (https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/) to the ISO PAS process. 15:46:06 +1 15:46:08 +1 15:46:09 +1 15:46:09 +1 15:46:09 +1 15:46:10 +1 15:46:12 +1 15:46:14 +1 15:46:22 RESOLUTION: The WG would like to submit VCDM 2 (https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/) to the ISO PAS process. 15:46:33 JoeAndrieu has joined #vcwg 15:46:50 q+ to ask about FCGS :) 15:46:57 topic: Face to Face in June 15:47:15 q- 15:47:35 phila: face-to-face in June. Charter is up and running, so I believe this is happening. 15:47:48 ... we hope to host you in Brussels at the GS1 offices there 15:47:53 ... we plan to do a social event 15:48:12 ... fries with mayonnaise will be a thing 15:48:17 ... also beer and chocolate 15:48:49 +1 to both - fallback if not beer 15:49:01 ... we'd do the tour in the afternoon, most likely 15:49:06 what are the dates? 15:49:09 ... the room we'll have holds up to 30 people 15:49:14 thahnks 15:49:19 ... and good telecon setup, so remote folks can join 15:49:28 q+ 15:49:39 ... we also have additional meeting rooms for breakouts 15:49:54 ack ivan 15:49:58 ... so, if you are working on a specific deliverable and want a breakout, that can be accomodated 15:50:10 ivan: so, Brussels is pretty big 15:50:17 ... the meeting place is not in the historical center 15:50:25 ... do you have a list of hotels near the office? 15:50:39 phila: there are not hotels near the office...well, one, but I don't like it 15:50:46 ... I'll send out more info soon 15:50:58 ... the one I recommend is a bit of a trek 15:51:12 ... the Moxy is great for breakfasts and stuff 15:51:17 q+ to ask about CCG publishing Final Community Group Specifications for New Normative Specifications. 15:51:20 ack manu 15:51:20 manu, you wanted to ask about CCG publishing Final Community Group Specifications for New Normative Specifications. 15:51:38 Topic: CCG Reports 15:51:41 manu: we have work in our charter that we now need to migrate into the WG 15:51:47 ... I'm not suggesting we do this all at once 15:51:55 ... we have new normative specs 15:52:06 ... they have normative work put into them and continue to be developed 15:52:18 ... we should ask the CCG to publish them as Final Community Group Reports 15:52:25 ... that will get the IPR stuff done 15:52:34 ... and then we can adopt them here in the WG 15:52:53 ... so I'd like us to resolve to pull in the spec Drafts listed in our charter 15:53:00 phila: do we need a resolution for that? 15:53:10 manu: it would make it easier to do, yes. 15:53:38 phila: it does mean that folks who want to stay involved 15:53:49 ... is there anyone who we know cannot make that transition? 15:54:39 q+ 15:54:45 ack manu 15:55:17 manu: we have tried throughout the process in the CCG to make sure Invited Expert processes were done for anyone making significant contributions 15:55:24 ... we will have to check again to be sure 15:55:31 ... and that will really fall to the editors 15:55:36 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Adopt all draft specifications listed in the New Normative Specifications section of the 2026 W3C VCWG Charter (https://w3c.github.io/vc-charter-2026/). Request that the Credentials Community Group publish Final Community Group Specifications for each specification. 15:56:13 s/Group Specifications/Group Reports/ 15:56:27 s/each specification/each document/ 15:56:37 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Adopt all draft specifications listed in the New Normative Specifications section of the 2026 W3C VCWG Charter (https://w3c.github.io/vc-charter-2026/). Request that the Credentials Community Group publish Final Community Group Reports for each document. 15:56:47 +1 15:56:47 +1 15:56:48 +1 15:56:48 +1 15:56:48 +1 15:56:50 +1 15:56:51 +1 15:56:52 +1 15:56:57 +1 15:57:15 +1 15:57:48 RESOLUTION: Adopt all draft specifications listed in the New Normative Specifications section of the 2026 W3C VCWG Charter (https://w3c.github.io/vc-charter-2026/). Request that the Credentials Community Group publish Final Community Group Reports for each document. 15:57:56 phila: yes, we will need to re-explain much of this if/when the technology changes to auto-scribing 15:58:15 ... the thing we did not get to today are the two specs currently in flight: Confidence and Resolution 15:58:25 Topic: Confidence Method 15:58:23 https://github.com/w3c/vc-confidence-method/pull/29 15:58:35 JoeAndrieu: we need to get into the nitty gritty 15:58:41 ... but that PR shows more about the status 15:58:46 ... we're meeting next week 15:58:53 ... so please look at that if you hope to attend 15:59:07 phila: thanks bigbluehat for scribing 15:59:11 ... and everyone for coming 15:59:14 ... talk soon 15:59:21 rrsagent, draft minutes