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13:29:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:29:23 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:30:13 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2026-03-05: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Mar/0000.html
13:30:14 <ivan> Chair: wendy
13:30:14 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
13:30:14 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Mar/0000.html
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14:00:12 <ivan> present+ LaurentLM
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14:00:24 <ivan> present+ wendyreid
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14:02:21 <wendyreid> Topic: Annotations - model to add audiovisual comments
14:02:30 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2925
14:03:06 <LaurentLM> q+
14:03:09 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:03:54 <gman> LaurentLM: the question is about audio/images annotations
14:04:29 <gman> ... Ivan tried to modernize the body format property annotation which go beyond text e.g. audio
14:04:41 <gman> ... yet another problem: where to start?
14:04:59 <ivan> q+
14:05:11 <gman> ... after segmenting and sending to the system, the epub export make problems to emerge
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14:05:46 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:05:47 <Hadrien> present+
14:05:49 <CharlesL> present+
14:06:17 <Hadrien> q+
14:06:29 <gman> ivan: is it realistic to transfer an ebook model for export/import?
14:06:39 <duga> q+
14:07:15 <shiestyle> s/Ivan tried/... Ivan tried/
14:07:29 <gman> LaurentLM: the audio annotations storage solution will not be in the epub itself
14:07:52 <gman> Ivan: when exporting annotations, the zip is exported with json+audio, which works
14:08:04 <gman> LaurentLM: which implies an internal structure inside zip
14:08:57 <gman> ... the use case i'm worried about the annotations exposrted as part of the file
14:08:58 <wendyreid> ack Hadrie
14:09:33 <sueneu> s/Hadrie /Hadrien
14:09:48 <gman> Hadrien: open domain content will not arise issues and the file sharing is ok
14:10:33 <gman> ... authors writing their own annotations is a possibility hence making this solution a standalone is not the best, having both is the best
14:10:43 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:11:22 <gman> duga: adding audio etc is not new and feasable
14:12:43 <gman> ... relative urls are already present, zipping the annotation will change the input format requirement, and might be confusing
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14:13:14 <gman> ... zip content should be transparent, if json is there it must be clearly stated
14:13:14 <LaurentLM> q+
14:13:20 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:14:07 <gman> LaurentLM: the issue is that the section 6 of current draft state a singe file usage
14:14:15 <duga> q+
14:14:20 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:14:38 <Hadrien> q+
14:14:42 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:14:58 <gman> Hadrien: OPF shouldn't be touched, by principle
14:15:01 <wendyreid> q+
14:15:39 <gman> it will be wierd if multiple things are able to be exported/imported, zip at least open up an extension possibility, which is nice
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14:16:07 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:16:48 <DaleRogers> present+
14:18:14 <gman> wendyreid: packaging up and embedding into epub, beyond OPF, do we run up into valdiation issues?
14:18:24 <gman> ... otherwise, outside of meta, should we target another new location?
14:18:32 <Hadrien> q+
14:18:32 <sueneu> q+
14:18:38 <gman> LaurentLM: not sure if another folder can be put into meta
14:18:38 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:19:20 <sueneu> q-
14:19:21 <ivan> q+
14:20:03 <gman> Hadrien: audio and other files in the back of epub is more part of an export action process
14:20:25 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:20:28 <gman> LaurentLM: the wording would be extended then
14:21:03 <CharlesL> q+
14:21:10 <gman> ivan: nothing in there forbids creation of a subdir for annotation
14:21:31 <gman> ... with nothing inside, a flat tree structure
14:22:41 <gman> ... on the other hand, the complications are overruled by user cases
14:22:43 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:23:00 <gman> CharlesL: the security is not to be overlooked
14:23:18 <gman> ... the injection disguised as annotation is a posibility
14:23:25 <sueneu> +1 CharlesL
14:23:31 <gman> LaurentLM: it's true
14:24:12 <duga> q+
14:24:13 <sueneu> q+
14:24:19 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:24:20 <gman> ivan: the scope of accepted base media files should stay the same
14:24:55 <sueneu> q-
14:25:10 <gman> duga: anything appropriate for epub must be definition be acceptable fo epub
14:25:19 <wendyreid> q+
14:25:21 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:25:44 <Hadrien> q+
14:25:46 <GeorgeK> q+
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14:28:36 <gman> wendyreid: there are reading system out there that support images not matching the dimensions showing screenshot of annotation in case of problem
14:28:53 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:29:29 <gman> Hadrien: I'm more worried about images than audio, sure mic needed etc
14:30:43 <gman> ... but for example the text layout can be changed completely, the view too, the interoeprable fashion setting might not work as a result
14:30:44 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
14:31:20 <gman> GeorgeK: the annotation access for future use must be exportable too
14:31:55 <ivan> q+
14:32:04 <ajellinek> q+
14:32:07 <gman> wendyreid: export of annotation only or export of the whole book annotated co-exist
14:32:10 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:33:12 <gman> ivan: from specing POV, meta and data handling is not of our problem
14:33:13 <sueneu> q+
14:33:43 <ajellinek> q-
14:34:11 <sueneu> q-
14:34:27 <gman> LaurentLM: even if only text annotations exist, we export a zip, with json structure
14:35:14 <gman> ajellinek: zip works with export and import as it's widely used
14:35:42 <gman> wendyreid: there's a consensus, strcutre is to be defined
14:36:14 <Hadrien> q+
14:36:16 <sueneu> q+
14:36:20 <gman> LaurentLM: once data is stored inside epub, the encryption poses a problem
14:36:23 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:36:43 <gman> Hadrien: in case of authored annotations, they must be encrypted
14:36:59 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
14:37:07 <CharlesL> q+
14:37:19 <gman> seuneu: +1 for authored annotations encrypted
14:37:37 <ivan> q+
14:37:43 <gman> ... namely for copyright reasons, if though it might not be our problem
14:37:47 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:37:57 <duga> q+
14:38:15 <gman> CharlesL: what about the superposition problem, i.e. annotation on annotation problem?
14:38:15 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:38:59 <gman> ivan: it's for the future given the can of worms this discussion opens up
14:39:05 <CharlesL> q+
14:39:44 <gman> ... the publishers allows for export of annotations importable by the peers, which just gives the authorization
14:39:52 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:39:57 <gman> ... a single file without a book containing annotations is ok
14:40:35 <Hadrien> q+
14:40:36 <gman> duga: DRM annotation: exportable or not exportable? that is the question
14:40:43 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:41:04 <LaurentLM> q+
14:41:11 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:41:27 <gman> CharlesL: the other point: multiple students in front of the same book, does this situation produces a set of subdirs?
14:42:02 <gman> Hadrien: the attribution becomes a tricky issue now, should we open the Pandora's box?
14:42:33 <gman> wendyreid: the difference between new annotations and responding to existing ones are two different problems
14:43:09 <gman> ... the recursivity of annotations is not a topic for now for the current model
14:43:09 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:43:13 <sueneu> q+
14:43:28 <gman> LaurentLM: to be clear, each annotation has its own author
14:43:39 <sueneu> q-
14:43:55 <gman> ... all the annotations, whatever the author, are thrown into one universal bag
14:45:05 <gman> ... i have a bigger cocnern with authored annotation in a DRM context because the encryption key makes the annotations intrinsic to the book itself
14:45:12 <sueneu> q+
14:45:18 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
14:45:54 <gman> seuneu: authored annotations must be processed differently from non authored ones?
14:46:00 <gman> LaurentLM: Yes
14:46:13 <duga> q+
14:46:30 <ivan> q+
14:47:01 <ivan> q-
14:47:09 <gman> wendyreid: annotated editions encapsualte annotations (i.e. they are part of the book by definition, by essence), thus are treating the annotations as integral to the book as a feature?
14:47:13 <ivan> +1 to what wendyreid said
14:47:14 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:47:31 <Hadrien> q+
14:47:44 <gman> duga: annotation mechanism should not be used in a DRM context
14:47:50 <gpellegrino> +1 to duga
14:48:20 <GeorgeK> +1 to what Brady is saying
14:48:20 <ivan> +1 to duga
14:48:24 <sueneu> +1 to duga
14:48:53 <gman> ... annotations that are part of the content is not a valid use case here
14:49:18 <gman> ... if we ignore it, the DRM problem goes away
14:49:28 <sueneu> q+
14:49:33 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:50:00 <gman> Hadrien: mixed feelings here
14:50:05 <shiestyle> q+
14:50:24 <gman> ... footnotes are horrible
14:50:44 <gman> ... media overlay via authored audio is possible too
14:51:50 <gman> ... people's creativity is without boundaries, thus we must be careful in our spec
14:52:19 <gman> wendyreid: i don't disagree, but the line must be drawn somewhere
14:53:03 <LaurentLM> q+
14:53:10 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
14:53:10 <gman> ... and it's : Authorized (created by author feat. publisher) vs Unauthorized (the other use cases)
14:53:35 <gman> seuneu: agree with Authorized vs Unauthorized idea
14:54:17 <gman> ... but with improvements of already existing features
14:54:21 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
14:55:28 <gman> shiestyle: the old footnnote feature and this annotation feature are two distinct things
14:55:35 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:56:13 <gman> LaurentLM: improving footnotes with the annotation methodology is complex
14:57:18 <gman> ... reading systems capabilities are dictated by the market
14:57:30 <gman> ... and annotations can be DRM protected just in case
14:57:54 <gman> wendyreid: the thing to figure out: where to store these annotations, inside or outside?
14:57:55 <ivan> q+
14:57:58 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:58:19 <gman> ivan: my feeling -- this issue is PR-ready
14:58:38 <gman> ... that's the next step
14:59:22 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes