13:59:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
13:59:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-matf-irc
13:59:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:59:33 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:59:33 <JJ> present+ shoobe01
13:59:40 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 4 March 2026
13:59:40 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:59:45 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 4 March 2026
13:59:49 <JJ> chair+
14:00:10 <JJ> agenda+ Software Layers
14:00:10 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.8 Touch Target Size (Minimum)
14:00:12 <JJ> agenda+ 3.1.1 Language of Page
14:00:14 <JJ> agenda+ 3.2.2 On Input
14:00:52 <JJ> regrets+ TanyaVanWorkum
14:00:57 <JJ> regrets+ TimGravemaker
14:02:00 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
14:02:26 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
14:02:30 <quintinb> scribe: quintinb
14:02:51 <tayef> tayef has joined #matf
14:02:57 <JatinV> JatinV has joined #matf
14:03:42 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:03:42 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Software Layers -- taken up [from JJ]
14:03:49 <JJ> https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVGCgwkGY=/
14:05:29 <JJ> q?
14:06:43 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:06:43 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.5.8 Touch Target Size (Minimum) -- taken up [from JJ]
14:06:53 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/10
14:07:15 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #matf
14:09:22 <Joe_Humbert> present+
14:09:38 <pauljadam> Do we need to recommend or mention in a note that Apple asks for 44 and Android asks for 48 which is beyond WCAG minimums?
14:09:50 <pauljadam> present+
14:10:05 <quintinb> The scanner for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.accessibility.auditor
14:10:40 <shoobe01> q+
14:10:53 <JJ> ack shoobe01
14:10:55 <JJ> ack shoobe
14:10:57 <pauljadam> The testing tools Android A11y Scanner and Xcode A11y Inspector do not account for spacing so you get false positives when using those tools.
14:11:26 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/10#issuecomment-3298969073
14:12:57 <shoobe01> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/155#issuecomment-3386057790
14:13:51 <quintinb> shoobe01 this is meta-research about sizes, I'm very confident about this, and trying to provide a link at the bottom (in IRC) has a summary. Our decision making should include both 2.5.8 and 2.5.5
14:14:43 <quintinb> shoobe01 "interference size" deals with how big an exclusion zone you need
14:15:21 <shoobe01> q+
14:16:31 <JJ> ack shoobe
14:16:40 <quintinb> What do you mean keeping 24?
14:16:46 <quintinb> and why?
14:19:11 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:20:47 <quintinb> shoobe01disappointed by that - it's plausable for pointer driven systems. But this shouldn't be applied for touch. Touch target size is what it is. We need to completely revamp this because of the entirely different interaction
14:21:44 <pauljadam> Should be called "Target Size or Spacing"
14:21:44 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:22:44 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert we should probably include reasons why we aren't making sweeping changes. We may need to talk to the larger working group. How many people read the preamble, because we need to ensure that people understand why.
14:24:45 <JJ> Poll: Do you agree to increase the minimum target size requirements from 24 to a larger number because of touch target vs pointer target differences?
14:24:56 <shoobe01> +1
14:25:11 <quintinb> +1
14:25:12 <Joe_Humbert> shoobe01 this is the cited research on WCAG 2.2 for 2.5.8. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1152215.1152260  I'm sure they reviewed other research, but I would have to ask
14:25:30 <tayef> +1
14:25:34 <Joe_Humbert> +1 but not sure of what number
14:25:45 <pauljadam> +1 we should make AAA moved to AA
14:25:54 <JatinV> 0
14:26:22 <pauljadam> the spacing part of AA is not even easily testable
14:27:24 <Joe_Humbert> +1 to what pauljadam said about spacing
14:27:27 <JJ> ACTION: 5x +1 and 1x 0 for increasing 2.5.8 minimum size requirements
14:27:34 <quintinb> Agree pauljadam - how are wesupposed to test a gap if everything is in odd units like dp?
14:27:48 <pauljadam> dp pt px it's just 44 x 44
14:27:54 <pauljadam> iOS 44 android 48
14:28:40 <quintinb> (I was talking about the gaps)
14:29:01 <pauljadam> gap is not part of the test for the AAA 44 x 44 requirement
14:29:15 <quintinb> I know, that's why I agree with you :)
14:29:19 <pauljadam> lol :)
14:29:54 <pauljadam> sorry I thought you were asking me a question lol 😆
14:30:22 <Tim> Tim has joined #matf
14:30:36 <quintinb> oh right - apologies - yeah I can see how it can read like that! It was a lament
14:31:30 <pauljadam> yes I've written test case steps for testing target size AA and it's weird to write because the automated tools will show false positives and you have to tell the tester to manually look for spacing
14:31:39 <JJ> q?
14:32:10 <JJ> ACTION: Create draft for 2.5.8 with larger size and notes with best practices for touch target size (vs pointer)
14:32:13 <pauljadam> people often ask how do they measure a target size on a mobile, they'll wonder if they need to pull out a ruler :)
14:32:17 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:32:17 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 3.1.1 Language of Page -- taken up [from JJ]
14:32:26 <JJ> github.com/w3c/matf/issues/14
14:32:41 <shoobe01> Yeah, I even made one I sell (cheaply!) for that because I believe in physical sizes :)
14:33:17 <pauljadam> iOS Display Zoom Large size might make that weird to measure on the device
14:33:32 <quintinb> Imperial or Metric units?
14:34:11 <quintinb> I'm still measuing in cubits
14:34:32 <quintinb> q+
14:34:43 <pauljadam> I don't think it matters how the developer sets the language of the page like on the page itself or on the app, as long as they set it properly they meet the SC
14:34:58 <quintinb> I'm also deeply concerned that ""
14:35:09 <quintinb> Oooh sorry enter too quickly
14:35:21 <pauljadam> don't need an exception for a platform's lack of support, the platform will evolve and support it over time
14:35:39 <quintinb> "We're still texting whether x-platform does it" - if x-platform doesn't need to do it, no one has to do it
14:36:00 <quintinb> and that isn't what I advocate for, I'm quite the opposite
14:36:05 <JJ> q?
14:36:10 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:37:11 <JJ> Poll: Do we agree for language requirements in apps, we should look at the platform level (e.g. Android, iOS) and not the framework level? (e.g. Flutter, React Native, etc.)
14:37:24 <pauljadam> Like when Android did not support headings WCAG did not say "android has an exception" we just waited until Android really did support headings.
14:37:25 <quintinb> +1
14:37:27 <shoobe01> +1
14:37:47 <tayef> +1
14:38:06 <JatinV> +1
14:38:11 <pauljadam> +1 but we don't to talk about exceptions for lack of support
14:38:13 <Tim> +1
14:38:37 <Joe_Humbert> +1
14:39:08 <JJ> ACTION: 7x +1 -> Only apply languge exception if unavailable at the platform level
14:39:16 <quintinb> I'm going to make a broswer that knows nothing about semantic tags, now I don't have to be compliant!
14:40:42 <JJ> ACTION: Create new draft for 3.1.1 Language of Page
14:40:46 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:40:46 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 3.2.2 On Input -- taken up [from JJ]
14:40:54 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/42
14:43:12 <quintinb> There is a lot of search functionality that looks like a textbox, but behaves like a button taking you to a search screen
14:43:38 <pauljadam> I've seen those bugs before quintinb
14:43:58 <quintinb> So you agree it's a violation?
14:44:02 <quintinb> (I think it is)
14:44:04 <pauljadam> yes
14:44:30 <quintinb> I really appreciate not feeling alone :cry-smile:
14:44:35 <pauljadam> but I think I failed it under On Focus
14:44:44 <quintinb> ah
14:48:46 <JJ> Poll: Is it sufficient for MATF to link to 3.2.2 On Input's Intent section for "Changing the setting"?
14:49:56 <pauljadam> +1
14:50:00 <quintinb> +1
14:50:02 <shoobe01> +1
14:50:07 <Tim> +1
14:50:09 <JatinV> +1
14:50:18 <tayef> +1
14:50:48 <JJ> ACTION: For "changing the setting" 3.2.2 link to the Intent section the explains what it means
14:51:59 <JJ> Poll: For 3.2.2 On Input, do we want to add examples of common mobile user interaction patterns that will count for "user has been advised of the behavior"?
14:52:51 <pauljadam> that sounds like a technique
14:53:16 <pauljadam> 0
14:53:46 <Tim> +1
14:53:58 <JatinV> +1 OTP (one time passcode) is another example
14:54:02 <tayef> +1
14:54:06 <quintinb> +1+1
14:54:13 <quintinb> Soz
14:54:16 <quintinb> too keen
14:54:24 <quintinb> trying to vote for Joe
14:55:20 <shoobe01> +1
14:55:46 <JJ> ACTION: 5x +1 and 1x 0 for adding common mobile user interaction patterns that count for user has been advised of the behavior"
14:56:02 <quintinb> 👏
14:58:37 <JatinV> JatinV has left #matf
14:59:07 <JJ> regrets- TimGravemaker
14:59:08 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-matf-minutes.html JJ
15:07:06 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
15:07:06 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-matf-actions.rdf :
15:07:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: 5x +1 and 1x 0 for increasing 2.5.8 minimum size requirements [1]
15:07:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-matf-irc#T14-27-27
15:07:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Create draft for 2.5.8 with larger size and notes with best practices for touch target size (vs pointer) [2]
15:07:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-matf-irc#T14-32-10
15:07:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: 7x +1 -> Only apply languge exception if unavailable at the platform level [3]
15:07:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-matf-irc#T14-39-08
15:07:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Create new draft for 3.1.1 Language of Page [4]
15:07:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-matf-irc#T14-40-42
15:07:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: For "changing the setting" 3.2.2 link to the Intent section the explains what it means [5]
15:07:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-matf-irc#T14-50-48
15:07:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: 5x +1 and 1x 0 for adding common mobile user interaction patterns that count for user has been advised of the behavior" [6]
15:07:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-matf-irc#T14-55-46