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16:57:44 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-aria-apg-irc
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16:57:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:57:45 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
16:58:21 <Matt_King> present+
17:02:34 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-apg
17:03:47 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
17:06:28 <Daniel> present+
17:07:01 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
17:07:03 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
17:07:09 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
17:07:31 <jugglinmike> topic: Setup and Review Agenda
17:07:38 <Siri> present+
17:07:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next meeting: March 18
17:07:44 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:07:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-aria-apg-minutes.html Daniel
17:07:52 <jugglinmike> present+ CurtBellew
17:07:52 <jugglinmike> present+ jongund
17:08:12 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/March-4%2C-2026-Agenda
17:08:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda?
17:08:22 <CurtBellew> present+
17:08:46 <jugglinmike> jongund: When will the color-usage work return to the agenda?
17:08:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Soon--after we get the next publication out
17:09:05 <jugglinmike> Topic: Publication planning
17:09:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Remi found a mistake in the AT support tables. I guess we missed one where it is not sharing the data--link example 3.
17:09:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So he did not publish.
17:09:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll fix that (it should be an easy fix), then it will be ready to go
17:10:11 <jugglinmike> Daniel: Can you mention me on the relevant "ARIA practices" pull request?
17:10:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sure
17:10:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For support tables, the source URL is based on the name of the directory for the repository in ARIA-AT
17:11:52 <jugglinmike> Daniel: There's something on the pull request that we're talking about changing with the dialog example
17:11:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll get that merged at the same time and include it
17:12:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Once I've done that, should I add a comment to the publication pull request and then mention both you and Remi
17:12:32 <jugglinmike> Daniel: Yes, that's perfect
17:12:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great. It'll be good to have that done before CSUN
17:13:00 <jugglinmike> Topic: PR 3400: aria-actions example
17:13:08 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3400
17:13:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is what CurtBellew is working on. We added it to the agenda at his request
17:14:01 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I implemented the suggestions that we had in 3400: the changes in the list itself and an alteration to make it look a little more like GMail
17:17:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wonder if we might want to consider putting the thing that says "content goes here" in a read-only edit (like we do in the color picker and file-tree views). Then it can be focusable. Then, for screen reader users, if you tab out, you could go there
17:17:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm torn on that, though because in real life, it wouldn't be that way. But it could be!
17:18:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We could leave the heading the way you have it, where it says "details" with a level-3...
17:18:35 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I could look into that. I have to do some other changes, anyway--there are some CSS issues here
17:18:55 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I did struggle with that issue: how do you make it clear that this is a master detail within the list box?
17:19:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we are making it look like GMail, then does GMail update its panel automatically on focus? I don't know because I always have to press "enter"
17:19:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: On the other hand, there are plenty of user interfaces like this where the right-hand panel updates automatically as you scroll through, so I could go either way
17:21:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have multi-select list boxes where selection doesn't follow focus. But I don't think we have a single-select where selection doesn't follow focus. And the fact that we don't have that might be enough justification to demonstrate it here
17:23:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we had selection not following focus, it would work a little more like example 2. But example 2 is a multi-select. So I think we probably would make it so both "enter" and "space" select.
17:23:50 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: This sounds good to me. It was one of the things I thought was weird when I was testing it
17:24:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, then we could have "enter" and "space" do the selecting, and when you select one, it de-selects the other
17:24:14 <Siri> q+
17:24:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So it's a little like tabs with manual activation in that way
17:24:35 <jugglinmike> jongund: Is there a good use case for selection not following focus?
17:24:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yeah, it's like the GMail example where you have a list with a separate panel where you open stuff
17:25:03 <jugglinmike> jongund: Okay. I guess there's cases where you don't want selection to follow focus
17:25:07 <jugglinmike> ack Siri
17:25:41 <jugglinmike> Siri: I was playing with GMail just now and seeing this
17:26:16 <jugglinmike> Siri: In Gmail where there is a checkbox with a star next to it. We have the option to select the star separately. Maybe removing the option to select the star would be good.
17:26:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Star and checkbox mean two different things
17:27:10 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: To set the star, you hit the action button, and that will change the state of the star on the row. You can use a mouse to change the state directly, but with keyboard, you need the action
17:27:33 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: And that was kind of confusing. It looked like you can click it
17:27:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do we want to show a persistent empty star?
17:28:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What if the persistent empty star was the same thing that got keyboard focus? That might be a little weird because then focus would jump, though. Was that the concern?
17:28:47 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: No, it was more that we move from the row that has focus to the action buttons. I hadn't thought about that. You would focus on the row, then arrow key would take you to the star on the row, and then another arrow key would take you to the action buttons...
17:29:05 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: The empty star to the left of the checkbox
17:29:14 <jugglinmike> s/star/star is/
17:29:28 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I'm assuming that the star button would still want to be an action
17:29:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yeah
17:29:51 <jugglinmike> Daniel: Actually, the favorite/star is the second thing when you're on the row
17:30:02 <jugglinmike> Daniel: If you add this in between the row and the actions, you'd have it twice
17:30:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're saying that we have a star in two different places when the row has focus
17:30:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The second is click-able with the mouse but not accessible with a keyboard
17:31:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we removed the current "action" button and made the current icon an action button, it would not be part of the same group of buttons with "move up", "move down", and "delete"... But it wouldn't have to be
17:31:50 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Okay, I can explore that. It makes a lot more sense. I had some internal battles with having those two things clickable
17:32:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I like this idea. Good call-out, Siri!
17:32:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Mouse users would still have an additional capability, they could click the star without focusing on the row, but that doesn't matter
17:33:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we aligned on selection not following focus, "enter" and "space" following select (and that would change the display of the right panel), and then exploring how we can have only the "star" icon being present and that being an action item
17:33:25 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Then there's a third thing: read-only edit
17:33:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ah, right. That, too
17:33:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sounds greate!
17:33:42 <jugglinmike> s/greate/great/
17:34:03 <jugglinmike> Topic: PR 3416: Add MCP server
17:34:12 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3416
17:35:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I didn't know that you could actually put something into the repo that would enable that repo to be an MCP source. This seems super-cool to me on the surface (if I understand the surface correctly)
17:35:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We need some people who have actually done this sort of work to look at this and provide feedback. That wouldn't be me!
17:35:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I would love to use this, and I would love it if a lot of people were using this. That would be great
17:36:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Has anyone here done any work related to developing MCP sources?
17:36:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, should we take it to the ARIA working group?
17:36:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Just to get a wider audience of people who could review and test this
17:37:39 <jugglinmike> Daniel: There's no official stance from the W3C on this sort of thing. I do know that some people in WAI have expressed opinions. I've used tools like this myself, but it's one thing to use them and another thing to promote their use.
17:38:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I would assume that the goal is to assist people who are building components--to allow them to instruct their agents to use the guidance from the APG
17:38:49 <jugglinmike> Daniel: In that case, then my comments wouldn't apply as much
17:40:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: One of the problems with pointing an agent at the APG right now is that not all of the content in APG is necessarily relevant to building a specific pattern. My understanding is that this would help agents be smarter by focusing their attention on the relevant information. I could be wrong about that!
17:42:26 <jugglinmike> Daniel: I'll take a look at this, and I'll bring it to WAI (just to make sure we're in alignment for this type of change)
17:42:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sounds good
17:47:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we can support something that makes APG more useful to agents, I think that would be awesome. But it may be a bigger lift (e.g. maybe it has an impact on the W3 org), so I'm interested in hearing what you and Remi have to say, Daniel
17:47:22 <jugglinmike> Topic: PR 3387: Clarify guidance for Focusability of disabled controls
17:47:32 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3387
17:47:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Adam_Page couldn't make it today
17:47:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've added some feedback
17:48:03 <jugglinmike> Daniel: I've written up some suggestions, but I haven't been able to post them yet due to technical difficulties with the GitHub UI
17:48:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wonder if your comments are similar to my comments. I added a comment rather than trying to mess with the "diff" viewer itself. I quoted the text that I think should change and I added my suggestions there
17:48:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: (I'm finding the new "diff" viewer for GitHub pull requests almost impossible to use.)
17:50:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It looks like I'm the only person who has been formally designated as a reviewer. If anyone else wants to add feedback, now is the time!
17:51:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But if Daniel is also reviewing, I think that will be sufficient because this is strictly an editorial change
17:51:25 <jugglinmike> Topic: PR 3410: Use F2 to edit a grid cell
17:51:34 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3410
17:51:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There is a modification to the package.json file in this pull request
17:52:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm not sure we want to accept any pull requests that fix examples and which also modify package.json
17:53:15 <jugglinmike> jongund: The "serve" module they added is related to serving static site content and listing directories
17:56:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'd like to see the change to "package.json" removed
17:57:16 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: We might also encourage the author to remove the irrelevant whitespace changes since they add a lot of noise to the patch
18:00:44 <jugglinmike> jongund: The JavaScript is included inline in the HTML document itself. We'd want it to be in a separate JavaScript file
18:00:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Should the JavaScript for a "popup" dialog be in its own file? Rather than mixed up with the existing JavaScript file?
18:01:10 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
18:01:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, Daniel, jugglinmike, Siri, CurtBellew, jongund
18:01:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:01:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/03/04-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:20 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:01:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
18:02:56 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
18:02:56 <RRSAgent> I see no action items