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13:45:36 <Zakim> Meeting: Positive Work Environment CG
13:48:02 <wendyreid> date: 2026-03-03
13:48:05 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
14:57:13 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #pwe
14:57:28 <dbooth> present+
15:00:01 <wendyreid> present+
15:00:59 <wendyreid> regrets+ JenStrickland
15:01:06 <cwilso> present+
15:01:23 <wendyreid> regrets+ tzviya
15:02:48 <amy> present+
15:04:44 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/wbs/1/202602ChairsTraining/
15:04:51 <DKA7> DKA7 has joined #pwe
15:05:44 <DKA7> present+ Dan_Appelquist
15:05:48 <dbooth> Topic: How to be a good participant
15:06:17 <dbooth> scribe+
15:06:47 <dbooth> dan: Scope of good participant guide?
15:06:58 <dbooth> ... Different groups run differently.
15:07:17 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues/447
15:07:25 <dbooth> wendy: Discussed open issues around inclusive mtg stds.
15:07:45 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues/440
15:08:24 <dbooth> wendy: Some things don't fit well into CoC -- not neat DO or DONT -- but to be a good citizen, you should be mindful of this.
15:09:08 <cwilso> q+
15:09:17 <dbooth> ... Each group might add to a basic version.
15:10:02 <dbooth> dan: Swapping back in the convo around interruptions -- cultural or comm style for some -- but accessibility need for others.
15:10:31 <wendyreid> ack cwilso
15:10:35 <dbooth> ... Still think it's useful to discuss.  We'll end up w guidelines rather than CoC level things.
15:11:34 <dbooth> chris: Groups have different MI.  The most important thing here is that all participants need to listen to understand others, before making your point, and you need to be respectful.
15:11:46 <DKA7> +1
15:11:49 <dbooth> ... The basic "You are here to understands other" is imprtant.
15:12:28 <dbooth> ... You can't get a half hour of others' time.  YOu can get 30 seconds to remind them to be repectful.  But the Chairs training is too long.
15:12:48 <dbooth> ... Getting participants to follow them is far harder, because they come and go so much.
15:13:11 <dbooth> ... Need to figure out how to make it narrow enough to say "this is the expectation", and point back to that if there are failures.
15:13:30 <dbooth> wendy: We'd have to run Participants Training weekly -- not sustainable.
15:13:54 <dbooth> chris: Like CoC reminders at beginning of mtgs.  I've seen it done well and done poorly.
15:14:21 <dbooth> ... Setting stds for the mtg would be helpful.
15:14:41 <dbooth> ... At TPAC it becomes obvious when different groups use differnet queing systems.
15:14:59 <DKA7> qq+ to talk about qq+
15:15:14 <dbooth> ... Those things can change how people listen to others.  Being brief and directive is probably most important.
15:15:37 <dbooth> dan: Discussed qq+ at the end of AB mtg.  Was being overused.
15:15:51 <cwilso> q+
15:16:19 <wendyreid> ack DKA
15:16:19 <Zakim> DKA, you wanted to react to cwilso to talk about qq+
15:16:21 <dbooth> dan: Some use it to say "I'm not listening to you, and I have sometihng ver important to say".
15:16:25 <dbooth> ... Could we cover it?
15:16:36 <dbooth> ... Also, don't think we should tell people how to queue.
15:16:39 <wendyreid> ack cwilso
15:16:50 <dbooth> +1 to both dan and chris's comments
15:17:09 <dbooth> chris: Culture should be clearer, and how to interact should be clearer.
15:17:45 <dbooth> ... qq+ only works alongside other things like strong chairing
15:18:00 <dbooth> ... Very context dependent
15:18:09 <DKA7> Something like "these are basics ... (a, b, c) that overlay many groups; here is the space for you to write in what is notable about your group (e.g. we do queuing this way... we take minutes using this tool... etc...)
15:18:31 <dbooth> ... The doc says it is specificlaly to respond to something.
15:18:56 <dbooth> ... And others on the queue should not have already been on the queue for the same reason.
15:19:11 <dbooth> ... Agree you cannot set a single way of working for every group.
15:19:18 <DKA7> +1
15:19:25 <dbooth> ... More about making sure that everyone is getting heard, and the rules support that.
15:19:40 <dbooth> q+ to wonder if qq+ is doing more harm than good
15:20:17 <dbooth> wendy: Tools are neutral.  It's how they are used, and chairs are managing them appropriately.
15:20:32 <cwilso> q+ to underscore the tool dbooth is using.  :P
15:20:46 <DKA7> Would formerly acknowledge the fact that different groups can make their own decisions about certain things.
15:20:53 <dbooth> ... Chairs training might say "For your group, fill this in to say how the group functions"
15:21:03 <wendyreid> ack dbooth
15:21:03 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to wonder if qq+ is doing more harm than good
15:21:09 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:21:25 <amy> q+ to ask chairs here about wrangling vs. group dynamics
15:21:34 <DKA7> This would also make it easier for new group participants as a lot of people tend to get confused when they see different groups operating in different ways.
15:21:40 <wendyreid> dbooth: Having been involved in W3C since 200? I had only heard of qq+ this year, I wonder if its doing more harm than good
15:21:53 <dbooth> wendy: I don't think many people know about it.
15:21:54 <wendyreid> ack cwilso
15:21:54 <Zakim> cwilso, you wanted to underscore the tool dbooth is using.  :P
15:22:14 <dbooth> chris: There was a tiny period in the AB when it was actualy a useful tool.
15:22:32 <dbooth> ... I don't think it should be heavily used.
15:23:04 <dbooth> ... Only reason to qq+ is for very trageted points or to respond to someone.
15:23:16 <dbooth> ... But if the chair doesn't manage it well, it could easily be abused.
15:23:46 <dbooth> ... I wish people would include the topic in the qq+
15:24:01 <wendyreid> dbooth: Maybe it should require a topic
15:24:09 <wendyreid> .. change the syntax requirements
15:24:18 <wendyreid> ack amy
15:24:18 <Zakim> amy, you wanted to ask chairs here about wrangling vs. group dynamics
15:24:42 <dbooth> amy: Interesting discussion about ways to set up best practices.
15:25:10 <dbooth> ... Dynamic I've observed: sometimes aggressive queueing distracts from a good discussion.
15:25:40 <dbooth> ... Thoughtful points raised, but if the queue is dominating, pausing sometimes helps instead of following queue
15:26:14 <DKA7> q+
15:26:29 <cwilso> +1
15:26:33 <dbooth> ... Queue is onely one tool.  But what might you suggest to new chairs?  qq can be used reasonably and well, but it can become a weapon.
15:26:52 <wendyreid> ack DKA
15:26:54 <dbooth> ... Queue might not leave time for more thoughtful discussion.
15:27:19 <dbooth> dan: What's the deliverable?   Queueing systems shoudl be in this guidance.
15:28:04 <dbooth> ... But thinking of a doc saying: Here are the basic things that are true (respectful, listen, adhere to CoC), and here are things the group can decide how to do.
15:28:30 <dbooth> ... Some groups use IRC queuing, some use zoom, some used google meet queuing.
15:28:46 <dbooth> ... That would make it clearer for participants.
15:29:24 <dbooth> ... Up to the group, led by the chair, to decide.
15:29:52 <dbooth> q+ to wonder if we should try to collect more data on qq+ use
15:30:13 <wendyreid> ack dbooth
15:30:13 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to wonder if we should try to collect more data on qq+ use
15:30:17 <dbooth> wendy: Never seen this stuff written down.  Spend the first 10 minutes watching how things happen.
15:30:44 <wendyreid> dbooth: I wonder whether considering the syntax rule for qq+ makes sense, maybe collect data on whether its useful
15:31:16 <amy> I find: https://www.w3.org/guide/meetings/zakim.html#qqplus
15:31:17 <dbooth> wendy: The queueing system doesn't get updated often.
15:31:41 <dbooth> ... Is there room to improve zakim to accommodate different styles of chairing?
15:32:04 <dbooth> ... Some chairs have tried to implement more conversational queueing style
15:32:25 <amy> we do have "q- later" but that's just to the back of the line
15:32:28 <dbooth> ... "I want to go after Amy but before Chris"
15:32:34 <dbooth> ... We don't have tools that do that.
15:33:02 <amy> i also just find: https://www.w3.org/guide/meetings/zakim.html#vq Display the speaker queue with notes (verbose queue)
15:33:14 <wendyreid> dbooth: If there were more of a habit to always put the topic in it might be good
15:34:05 <dbooth> wendy: Maybe a "q+ to follow amy"?
15:34:21 <dbooth> dan: Worried about anything that adds too much structure.
15:34:40 <dbooth> ... Too much can make people feel like they don't also need to behave like human beings.
15:35:05 <dbooth> ... When lifts in a tall building "can I hold the door for you".
15:35:22 <dbooth> ... But if you have to enter the floor you want, that pleasantry goes away.
15:35:39 <dbooth> ... When tools control too much, the human behavior suffers.
15:36:26 <dbooth> ... Chairs might say "we need a strictre form of queuing" or "I think x might have an aswer to that question"
15:36:45 <dbooth> ... Worried about introducing tools to enforce a culture.
15:36:53 <dbooth> ... rather than guidelines.
15:37:32 <dbooth> wendy: Might want to do a study on this -- interview chairs, or sit in on groups.  Don't want to automate to the point of not needing the convo
15:38:04 <dbooth> ... Classmate is doing a study on neurodiv people in online mtgs and their struggles.
15:38:24 <dbooth> ... One thing they found deeply disturbing is now knowing when to jump in.
15:38:56 <dbooth> ... Interesting finding.
15:39:39 <wendyreid> dbooth: I often face that dilemma of not knowing when to interrupt, especially in groups of people accustomed to it, it's not natural for me
15:40:18 <amy> "over-talking" is how I've seen that described - some cultures operate in this way that the presumption is that ppl will jump in if/when they want
15:40:31 <dbooth> wendy: Culturally interruption is seen as negative, but also indicates engagement.
15:40:55 <dbooth> ... Both can exist.
15:40:56 <amy> when they are interested, as Wendy says. but other cultures wait for their "time to speak" and, of course, there's also  cultures with some hierarchy of who speaks
15:41:16 <dbooth> dan: Writing that in the guidelines might help.
15:41:20 <dbooth> +1
15:41:44 <dbooth> dan: Different comm styles.  We have mechanisms to try to be respectful, but sometimes it takes extra care.
15:42:20 <dbooth> amy: Some chairs at the end of adiscussion will say "x, do you have anything to add"?
15:42:21 <DKA7> q+ to give an example from recent AB chairing
15:42:28 <wendyreid> ack DKA
15:42:28 <Zakim> DKA, you wanted to give an example from recent AB chairing
15:42:33 <dbooth> ... Unsure if that is seen as positive or putting pressure on x.
15:43:09 <dbooth> dan: Because of the different languages and cultures in the AB, in some cases we've started to intro the Q of "are we moving too quickly"?
15:43:52 <dbooth> ... Especially if we're in the heat of trying to close github issues, we've had feedback that some are left behind.
15:44:03 <amy> these suggestions could be added to a nice "best practices" or even "practices to consider"
15:44:09 <dbooth> q+ to menting that going too fast was a problem that Jen mentioned also
15:44:16 <wendyreid> ack dbooth
15:44:16 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to menting that going too fast was a problem that Jen mentioned also
15:44:38 <wendyreid> dbooth: That was something Jen had brought up, it can happen for a variety of reasons, language etc
15:45:02 <dbooth> wendy: Chairs know these things about the groups, better than anyone.
15:45:24 <dbooth> ... Like the idea of having "In your group, please add ..."
15:46:02 <dbooth> amy: One thing I like abt the AB: I've watched AB members suggst sometihng, and others pick up the same thing.
15:46:11 <dbooth> ... Willingness to adapt has been very helpful.
15:46:21 <dbooth> ... New ways to address different topics.
15:46:54 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/wiki/(DRAFT)-How-to-be-a-Good-Participant
15:47:13 <dbooth> dan: Issues 440 and 447 don't seem to address creation of these guidelines.  Should we add stuff toa wiki?  How to push this forward?
15:47:28 <dbooth> wendy: I created the wiki page.  People can add to it.
15:47:53 <dbooth> ... Also could create an issue for it.
15:48:10 <dbooth> dan: Feels like these minutes could be mined for such guidelines.
15:49:13 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues/475
15:50:08 <dbooth> wendy: The CoC will always be a work in progress, but some of these nuancy mo-than-one-way things can go in guidance like this.
15:51:33 <dbooth> amy: HOpe the team w work on this: someone on social media pointed out, a spec used out-of-date-lauuage about heteronormative language
15:52:50 <dbooth> ... Had to figure out what to do about it.  Can we add a line at the top saying "Ths uses outdated language".
15:53:02 <dbooth> ... Question is who does it and how?
15:53:31 <dbooth> dan: Could be an AB issue
15:54:01 <dbooth> amy: Or if someone has a name change.  DOesn't need approval, its just a quick change.
15:54:24 <dbooth> ...  Name change is done by request.
15:55:50 <amy> https://www.w3.org/2016/02/trans-rec-edit.html
15:55:50 <amy> https://www.w3.org/guide/standards-track/republishing.html -> In-place modification of W3C Technical Reports
15:55:50 <dbooth> amy: Might fit into "In place modification of report".  WE might just need so say why the change might happen.
15:56:18 <dbooth> amy: Documents should not use heternormative terminology.
15:57:06 <dbooth> ... We also did an accross the board change about preferred language, e.g., no longer use master/slave terms.
15:57:48 <amy> [["For instance, the statement that B is the wife of A obviously implies that B is a woman while A is a man.”]]
15:58:29 <DKA7> oh dear.
15:58:46 <dbooth> ADJOURNED
15:58:53 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/03/03-pwe-minutes.html dbooth
15:59:01 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please make minutes
15:59:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/03/03-pwe-minutes.html wendyreid
15:59:11 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
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