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15:37:40 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/03/03-ag-irc
15:37:43 <Rachael> zakim, start meeting
15:37:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:37:45 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
15:37:47 <Rachael> agenda?
15:39:34 <Rachael> agenda+ WCAG 2 proposed changes (review by 9 March) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2026JanMar/0108.html
15:44:11 <Rachael> agenda+ Continued discussion of and work on ACT Rules for Requirements https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1klORYoNQq3oDMJLc52q6Qf5gCTIcGHsm2kBbroj7bMM/edit?usp=sharing
15:48:50 <Rachael> regrets+ John K
15:49:15 <Rachael> regrets+ Bruce, Brian
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15:58:10 <Francis_Storr> present+
15:58:39 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
15:58:48 <laura> present+ laura
15:58:48 <GreggVan> present+
15:59:01 <Rachael> present+
15:59:01 <laura> Scribe: laura
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16:00:16 <kevin> present+
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16:02:44 <laura> rm: Any new members?
16:02:46 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+
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16:03:55 <laura> Dirk Ginader: I just joined. 20-something years at Google for 13 at this point, Yahoo before that.
16:03:56 <Heather> present+
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16:04:44 <AWK> present+
16:04:46 <ginader> hey all 🙂
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16:04:57 <Frankie> present+
16:05:02 <eloisa> presen+
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16:05:07 <laura> Charles Hall: I know many of you, many of you know me. spent five and a half years with CVS Health.
16:05:09 <eloisa> present+
16:05:18 <tayef> present+
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16:05:24 <julierawe> present+
16:05:38 <LenB> present+
16:05:38 <laura> ... l was active in the Silver Task Force and AG between November 2017 and March of 2021.
16:06:04 <Rachael> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/
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16:06:13 <laura> RM: on March 8th, the United States will do a time change.
16:06:26 <Makoto_U> present+
16:06:39 <laura> ... the draft was published.
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16:06:52 <laura> ... feel free to post and share that on social media.
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16:06:53 <maryjom> present+
16:06:56 <SydneyColeman> present+
16:07:06 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 1
16:07:06 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- WCAG 2 proposed changes (review by 9 March) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2026JanMar/0108.html -- taken up [from Rachael]
16:07:18 <Jon_Avila> present+
16:07:33 <laura> Kevin: there will be an announcement coming from, W3C too.
16:08:23 <laura> Patrick: sReminder to people that if they haven't had a chance to look at the email that was sent that lists the proposed changes, please do.
16:08:36 <alastairc> s/sReminder/Reminder
16:08:56 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 2
16:08:56 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Continued discussion of and work on ACT Rules for Requirements https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1klORYoNQq3oDMJLc52q6Qf5gCTIcGHsm2kBbroj7bMM/edit?usp=sharing --
16:08:59 <Zakim> ... taken up [from Rachael]
16:09:05 <laura> ...if you can, just to look over that we didn't overlook anything.
16:09:19 <alastairc> q?
16:09:29 <kevin> Slideset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1klORYoNQq3oDMJLc52q6Qf5gCTIcGHsm2kBbroj7bMM/edit?slide=id.p#slide=id.p
16:09:53 <laura> RM: We're going to continue the discussion of and work on ACT rules.
16:11:17 <laura> ...We believe it will help us to create higher quality requirements.
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16:11:50 <stevef> present+
16:12:09 <laura> ... We've got this set of existing ACT rules, but ACT also has a rules format  that's been documented. We've, signed off on it, it's published.
16:12:41 <laura> ... there was a conversation at the chair's level,.
16:13:12 <laura> ... I wanr to bring this understanding here and clarify it.
16:13:49 <laura> ... In WCAG 3, what we were hoping to do is start here and create enough rules with enough coverage that when put together, that set of rules that ties to a requirement.
16:13:55 <GreggVan> q+
16:14:03 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
16:14:20 <laura> ...Rules mostly prove the absence of a failure rather than 100% success.
16:15:13 <laura> Gregg: ACT test little bits of a provision. They don't test the whole provision, and so passing them doesn't mean that you pass.
16:16:07 <laura> ... my kind of concern, is that passing an ACt rule doesn't actually mean you either pass or fail, it doesn't mean anything at all. It just means you passed the ACT.
16:16:37 <GreggVan> q+
16:16:44 <laura> ... mean anything at all. It just means you passed the ACT.
16:17:21 <laura> RM: (Show example)
16:17:43 <alastairc> [slide 5]
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16:18:34 <Jen_g> Present+
16:18:48 <laura> RM: we're looking for something, I believe, in order to pass page view title available, all of the following must be true.
16:19:30 <laura> ... So, long-term, we expect that we will have multiple types of rules within WCAG3 methods.
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16:20:38 <laura> ... covers Text Color Adjustable
16:20:38 <laura> 
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16:20:53 <laura> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N2rWpUTAN_u6fP53k9V1q5EjI5drMY7fXFu6i5xfmws/edit?tab=t.0
16:21:52 <laura> rm: process of pulling examples, finding what worked, what didn't, led us to a really good conversation around, well, should this be text color adjustable and non-text color adjustable
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16:22:34 <laura> ... examples drove good conversations.
16:22:34 <graham> present+
16:23:11 <kirkwood_> Present+
16:23:14 <laura> ... this process has really helped refine and get to a point where we have better examples, and there's a working draft.
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16:24:23 <laura> ac: covers https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ucdwQdwGCuTPzKXAfF8tTe5RRXsWVFE2bB--6zFRjiQ/edit?tab=t.4ts7mfo3ejq1#heading=h.2c4uehj7negn
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16:24:34 <Gez> present+
16:26:33 <kirkwood_> Was there any discussion about surfacing the flagging frequency for the user through meta data such that they could have personalized needs for flagging frequency filtered?
16:26:51 <Patrick_H_Lauke> a cursor would also not cover more than a few pixels, so likely wouldn't trigger anything?
16:26:51 <kirkwood_> Flagging/flashing
16:27:17 <Charles> q+ for process clarity to comment on demonstrated doc examples.
16:27:41 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
16:28:16 <Patrick_H_Lauke> q+
16:28:22 <laura> Gregg: a transition is a shift in in luminosity, in the opposite direction.
16:28:37 <laura> ... If you go down, and then go down again, that doesn't... second one doesn't count as a transition, just a tweak for you there.
16:29:07 <laura> ... I think it would be helpful if we labeled all the ACT rules as being comprehensive.
16:29:34 <laura> ... The other flag is the technology
16:29:36 <Helen> q+
16:29:49 <laura> ...agnostic.
16:30:07 <Rachael> q+ to say we are not only writing html rules
16:30:46 <laura> ... if it's only for HTML, then it really falls into the category of being a technique.
16:31:12 <laura> ... l'm not sure what the purpose of examples are.
16:32:09 <alastairc> ack Helen
16:32:24 <laura> ... if it's not a comprehensive rule ,Then the examples of passing and failing don't even tell me if it passes or fails.
16:32:56 <laura> Helen: we have examples of code in HTML, but a lot of the actual pass-fails can be agnostic.
16:33:40 <shadi> present+
16:34:00 <laura> ... the point of the examples are not about, being device specific in some cases, the code examples are for the automation, but the generic what happens that is to help the manual tester, to understand how to do the testing effectively.
16:34:37 <laura> ... As we've grown, we've been doing more manual rules and there's ones that are very subjective.
16:35:06 <alastairc> ack Rachael
16:35:06 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to say we are not only writing html rules
16:35:11 <laura> ... They can't be implemented by automation. So if you have a look at the proposed rules, a lot of those are the manual testing rules that cannot be automated as easily, so it's not about automation as such, it's just automation tools can use the rules.
16:35:12 <laura> to help make sure that they're being agnostic
16:35:27 <Rachael> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/rules/
16:35:28 <laura> ... of one person's ideas of what meets the success criterion.
16:35:38 <alastairc> ack Charles
16:35:38 <Zakim> Charles, you wanted to discuss process clarity to comment on demonstrated doc examples.
16:35:59 <laura> RM: we aren't saying that you should only be writing HTML rules. We should be writing generic rules that, when put together, become a comprehensive or, um, compound role.
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16:36:45 <laura> Charles Hall: What's the preferred method for adding comment?
16:37:04 <alastairc> ack Patrick_H_Lauke
16:37:25 <laura> AC: you can either comment in the survey or comment on the document.
16:37:59 <Charles> where might I find a list of active subgroups, scope, and how to join?
16:38:06 <laura> Patrick: How big is the flashing surface? Because taking it to the extreme, we shouldn't really fail a page for a single pixel that flashes, even if the frequency is very high, because, you know, yeah, it comes down to the actual size of it.
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16:38:35 <laura> AC: But the frequency test is separate from the size test.
16:38:43 <laura> ... So, you would have to fail both.
16:38:59 <alastairc> q+
16:38:59 <laura> ...In order to actually fail, and then the size test is looking for
16:39:16 <LoriO> q+
16:39:21 <Daniel> present+
16:40:06 <Rachael> ack alastairc
16:40:12 <laura> ac: in the document, we've got top-down procedures like non-decorative images.
16:40:42 <laura> ... they aim to help people understand the provision.
16:40:46 <alastairc> acl lori
16:40:49 <alastairc> ack LoriO
16:41:26 <laura> ... The ACT rules kind of a harder thing to do, and involves finding more examples on things..
16:42:01 <laura> Lori: ACT rules states that they are technology specific.
16:42:28 <Helen> There is an FAQ section: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i_O5J7D4BWMZAB7NaD4iplDRuqOjCvCGAaHdAirLUhE/edit?usp=sharing
16:42:28 <laura> RM: But I hear that concern, and let me see if I can get a better clarification on that.
16:42:34 <Rachael> q+
16:42:44 <Rachael> q-
16:43:01 <laura> AC: we're gonna need rules for things that are word-based. Doesn't matter what, uh, technology you're on.
16:43:39 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACT rules WILL have to have high-level, non-technological, user-acceptance criteria style rules. which i believe the ACT *format* allows
16:43:51 <laura> RM: It is an iterative process, and that ACT rules may update what they have as their form.
16:44:15 <laura> ... if you're most comfortable with the HTML, write the HTML first, and then we can work towards generic.
16:44:48 <laura> ac: we're going to be going into our breakout rooms.
16:45:22 <julierawe> q?
16:48:30 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:48:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/03/03-ag-minutes.html laura
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17:27:55 <laura> zakim, end meeting
17:27:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Francis_Storr, Laura_Carlson, GreggVan, Rachael, Charles, kevin, hdv, CClaire, filippo-zorzi, Adam_Page, alastairc, Makoto_U,
17:27:58 <Zakim> ... Patrick_H_Lauke, Jennie_Delisi, jtoles, Helen, Heather, LoriO, AWK, cgrimley, Frankie, eloisa, tayef, julierawe, LenB, maryjom, SydneyColeman, Jon_Avila, stevef, Jen_g, graham,
17:27:58 <Zakim> ... kirkwood_, Gez, shadi, Daniel
17:27:58 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:27:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/03/03-ag-minutes.html Zakim
17:28:05 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, laura; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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