13:58:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
13:58:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/02/25-matf-irc
13:58:29 <shoobe01> present+
13:58:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:58:30 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:58:31 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 25 February 2026
13:58:31 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:58:37 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 26 February 2026
13:59:20 <JJ> chair+
13:59:34 <JJ> agenda+ Software Layers
13:59:37 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.2 Page Titled
13:59:41 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.11 Focus Not Obscured (Minimum)
13:59:45 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.7 Dragging Movements
13:59:48 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.8 Touch Target Size (Minimum)
13:59:52 <JJ> agenda+ 3.1.1 Language of Page
13:59:55 <JJ> agenda+ 3.2.2 On Input
14:00:36 <JatinV> JatinV has joined #matf
14:00:51 <tayef> tayef has joined #matf
14:00:54 <JatinV> Regrets, I need to miss today's meeting due to axe-con 2026 commitments!
14:01:13 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
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14:01:30 <JJ> regrets+ JatinV
14:01:35 <JJ> Thanks for letting me know!
14:01:39 <JJ> And good luck at axe-con
14:01:47 <JatinV> Thanks!
14:01:48 <tayef> present+
14:01:56 <quintinb> present+
14:02:01 <quintinb> scribe: quintinb
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14:03:09 <Tanya> present+
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14:03:17 <pauljadam> present+
14:03:48 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:03:48 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Software Layers -- taken up [from JJ]
14:03:58 <JJ> Miro board: https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVGCgwkGY=/
14:05:35 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #matf
14:06:52 <Tanya> q+
14:07:03 <JJ> ack Tanya
14:07:13 <Joe_Humbert> present+
14:08:05 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#user-agent
14:09:20 <quintinb> @Tanya: I think it's clear - But what needs to be made clear is where we put responsibility. In WCAG2ICT, they make User Agent more broad. Where does framework software fits is not clear to me. Are we adding excemptions for react / flutter? I don't think that was the initial idea. We need to either introduce a different definition or what will be
14:09:20 <quintinb> included
14:09:41 <quintinb> This is your semi-automated reminder to double check the scribe
14:12:35 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:12:35 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.4.2 Page Titled -- taken up [from JJ]
14:12:49 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/9
14:14:42 <pauljadam> Heading as the page title is the common accepted method for mobile a11y if they're not using a .navigationTitle
14:14:44 <shoobe01> q+
14:14:51 <JJ> ack shoobe
14:15:28 <quintinb> shoobe01 I thought we had a descussion that there was a page header.
14:16:04 <JJ> (some of the recent minutes [1-2 weeks] are not yet added to the related GitHub issues)
14:16:19 <quintinb> shoobe01 Pleanty apps don't have this - shoobe01 I'll try find the minutes
14:16:47 <quintinb> Are we requiring that every "Page" have a title?
14:17:09 <pauljadam> I think we define how you make a page title in the techniques but the requirement is the same as WCAG.
14:17:46 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:17:55 <pauljadam> there's no reason why an app can't have a page title for every page
14:17:58 <quintinb> I just opened "ABC Bank" - do I really need a title called "ABC Bank?"
14:18:14 <pauljadam> The page is probably the Login page when you open the bank app
14:18:24 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:18:31 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert: Is on mute
14:19:33 <Tanya> q+
14:19:51 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert: Looking at the definiteion, has the note been added in WCAG2ICT? I'm not seeing it. I agree with what's been said. We're just adding more definitions that aren't commonly defined and that's ambigiuos
14:20:11 <pauljadam> All we need too say is "Pages have titles that describe topic or purpose."
14:20:13 <JJ> ack Tanya
14:20:58 <quintinb> Tanya: Just a comment: What do you mean it's not required by EN? It is required by EN? Is this the application?
14:20:58 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:21:23 <quintinb> Tanya EN also says that if you open the text ... <quotes en>
14:22:42 <pauljadam> window or screen seems different than a page 🤔
14:23:10 <pauljadam> like does window mean a modal dialog or a dialog needs a title?
14:23:59 <pauljadam> isn't the ways to provide a page title part of a WCAG technique and not the SC text?
14:24:20 <JJ> Maybe: NOTE: Examples of **titles** in mobile applications are: ...
14:25:24 <quintinb> Tanya: On the draft note I added: The purpose of the note is to give a general understanding. It's not clear if you should do it the same way on all screens. You cannot identify clearly all the ways. The SC remains a little vauge. The goal of the note is to indicate the broad application of the SC. We can probably make it shorter. I hear that it's
14:25:24 <quintinb> not clear, but the idea was to name some examples, not prescibe them specifically.
14:25:25 <JJ> Good point pauljadam, yes thats https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/html/H25
14:25:48 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/page-titled.html
14:28:17 <JJ> q?
14:28:24 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:28:35 <tayef> q+
14:28:38 <quintinb> Joe_HumbertI'll ask for clarity in the note
14:28:41 <JJ> ack tayef
14:29:15 <pauljadam> well the SC does not say it must be unique
14:29:19 <quintinb> tayef Would it be worth adding in 2.... pages have unique titles? Does a title have to be unique and this would be an important distinction
14:29:21 <pauljadam> just has to describe topic or purpose
14:29:28 <shoobe01> Q+
14:30:12 <quintinb> tayef as we're discussing potentional revisions, how important is the emphasis on the title being unique
14:30:19 <pauljadam> typically yes unique is needed just not said specifically in the WC SC
14:31:18 <JJ> ack shoobe
14:31:40 <pauljadam> I wonder if something like a TabBar Selected Tab text can serve as a "page title" in a native app?
14:32:06 <quintinb> shoobe01 - it does seem that we need that we should have a note on globally unique name in the best case
14:32:30 <shoobe01> +1 for pauljadam comment. Already noted as something to explicily mention. I do this a lot in day to day work
14:32:56 <pauljadam> Some apps like the Clock have both the Tab and a page title but then on the Stopwatch tab they don't have another page title at the top.
14:33:34 <JJ> q?
14:33:43 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:33:43 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.4.11 Focus Not Obscured (Minimum) -- taken up [from JJ]
14:33:53 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/52
14:34:37 <pauljadam> Focus not "Fully" Obscured
14:34:55 <quintinb> If "wiggle room" needed a success criterion
14:36:13 <pauljadam> since the SC wording says "keyboard focus" I would say to keep it to only keyboard unless WCAG goes beyond that in the future maybe
14:36:18 <JJ> Poll: For 2.4.11 Focus Not Obscured, do we only consider Keyboard focus as part of "keyboard focus" and not other assistive tech?
14:36:43 <Joe_Humbert> -1
14:36:47 <quintinb> Can you clarify what -1, 0 and 1 mean in this context?
14:37:00 <quintinb> -1
14:37:12 <pauljadam> 1
14:37:15 <Tanya> -1
14:37:27 <pauljadam> I would wonder why did WCAG itself not say other ATs than keyboard?
14:37:56 <quintinb> In my understanding, Keyboard has been defined as "the interface" in WCAG, not the hardware
14:38:03 <tayef> Are we going to add anything about other assistive tech, if that's the case?
14:38:28 <quintinb> 2.1.1
14:38:54 <quintinb> All functionality of the content is operable through a keyboard interface without requiring specific timings for individual keystrokes, except where the underlying function requires input that depends on the path of the user's movement and not just the endpoints.
14:39:34 <quintinb> So we don't need to trap focus for screen readers in a dialog? That's going to make some developers happy
14:39:42 <pauljadam> It's probably up to the platform os ATs to sort of behave the same way with e.g. a switch control and a keyboard so that when they put keyboard focus on something it works the same when they put switch focus on the element
14:39:52 <Tanya> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/keyboard-accessible.html
14:40:56 <pauljadam> I think WCAG expects that if it works with keyboard then it works with the other AT like switch?
14:40:56 <shoobe01> Q+
14:40:58 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:41:38 <JJ> ack shoobe
14:41:46 <pauljadam> I don't think WCAG requires that you test with every single AT like switch control.
14:42:19 <quintinb> shoobe01: You'[ve lost me - keyboards are not the main inputs for assistive technology. I've alwaysd assumed this was the software keyboard.
14:43:18 <quintinb> shoobe01 I tend to say that for our task force we need to flip hardware vs software input. The primary method is software, and the hardware keyboard is the assistive option
14:43:29 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:44:18 <pauljadam> q+
14:44:51 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I think for mobile apps, we should add to it, not use it as is. We need to add accessibilty interface, the other assisitve services were created with a visible focus indicator. On mobile these are things that was always there. I don't want to change the definitions but I want to add other assisitve techs to the requirement
14:46:07 <JJ> ack pauljadam
14:47:34 <quintinb> pauljadam I feel like wcag is written in such a way that it's up to the platform to behave well with the AT. WCAG doesn't require you test with every AT - It's hard enough to do accessibility testing as it is, we should just leave it to the platform
14:48:10 <JJ> q?
14:48:42 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/52?issue=w3c%7Cmatf%7C211
14:49:11 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:49:11 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 2.5.7 Dragging Movements -- taken up [from JJ]
14:49:19 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/53
14:49:19 <pauljadam> I fell like WCAG saying keyboard focus includes switch focus or other AT focus might be a level AAA or part of a new version of WCAG because that seems like an extra requirement.
14:52:32 <pauljadam> Zooming is under Pointer Gestures and does require the single pointer taps
14:52:51 <pauljadam> Panning the map would be under Dragging Movements and have the same need for controls.
14:53:03 <shoobe01> q+
14:53:13 <quintinb> Doesn't this just apply to custom gestures that are added by developers?
14:54:22 <JJ> ack shoobe
14:54:50 <quintinb> shoobe01 Just want to clarify - I differentiate between scrolling, dragging and gesturing - what are we talking about here?
14:54:56 <pauljadam> an exception I found is the iOS Slider Control where you have to drag it and that seems to be allowed because it's a pure native control under the exception
14:55:02 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-dragging-movements
14:55:21 <pauljadam> scrolling is not dragging because you're not dragging an element
14:56:31 <quintinb> shoobe01 is scrolling something we need to discuss in the future?
14:57:55 <pauljadam> I always failed dragging under Pointer Gestures until Dragging Movements was released.
14:58:46 <pauljadam> single tap or many single taps
14:58:55 <shoobe01> +100. Anything driven by click OR clicks should suffice
14:59:12 <pauljadam> yes it can be many taps
15:00:31 <pauljadam> q+
15:01:20 <Joe_Humbert> need to drop, sorry
15:01:37 <shoobe01> We're never gonna get back to touch target sizes!
15:01:38 <JJ> ack pauljadam
15:01:41 <JJ> close the queue
15:01:44 <JJ> zakim, close the queue
15:01:44 <Zakim> ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed
15:02:00 <JJ> shoobe: next week, I promise ;)
15:02:26 <quintinb> pauljadam This has the exception for the user agent. The iOS slider has exception. You can't just single tap. However you could have buttons on either side as required by the wording
15:02:37 <quintinb> shoobe01I wish we didn't give OS's a pass in this case
15:02:50 <quintinb> +1 to not giving OS's a pass
15:03:06 <shoobe01> present-
15:03:15 <quintinb> lol @shoobe01
15:03:26 <quintinb> bye
15:03:44 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
15:03:45 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been shoobe, tayef, quintinb, Tanya, pauljadam, Joe_Humbert
15:03:51 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/25-matf-minutes.html JJ
15:04:51 <JJ> regrets+ TimGravemaker
15:04:52 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:04:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/25-matf-minutes.html JJ
15:21:20 <JJ> JJ has joined #matf
15:21:20 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
15:21:20 <RRSAgent> I see no action items